Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 03-05-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The story of Jebus's actual father being a Roman soldier by the name of 'Pantera' goes all the way back to the 'The True Word' ananti- Christian literary work composed by Celsus circa 170 CE, and opposed by Origen in Contra Celsum.
There is little question that this identification was made very early, and that the claim and dispute do date to the 2nd century CE.
If it was known to the author of 'Mark' it is understandable why his tale would avoid any mention of Jebus birth or father.
And the latter expanded tales would incorporate a 'miraculous' birth tale to counteract claims that Jebus was really the bastard son of of an illegitimate union.

Sure - but it's all storytelling.....

- albeit a story that maybe is attempting some symbolism or historical allegory etc.

What fascinates me is following the story developments....

Indeed the Pandera story is fanciful......but the situation it relates is pretty ordinary. A woman has a child by another man, in a previous relationship, prior to her marriage to another man. Happens all the time....Illegitimate? Well, that just adds drama to the story....

Sheshbazzar · 03-05-2013, 10:49 AM

That the story that Jesus was Fathered by a HOLY Ghost or the Son of God was known BEFORE Celsus wrote "True Discourse, is no evidence that the story of of 'Jebus' having an illegitimate birth was not known to Celsus BEFORE he wrote "True Discourse".
Logic would say he wrote the claim only because he was aware of the claim, there is no way of determining for how long he may have been aware of the claim.
If it arose out of a pre-christian Jewish work called the Toledot Yeshu, he may well have known it all of his adult life, and the Tolodot tale may even date to the BCE era.
There are many Jewish scholars that say the original Tolodot Yeshu had nothing at all to do with the latter 'Jebus the Christ', but is really an old Jewish tale about a different pre-christian 'Jebus', a Jewish magician.
Which given the situation that evolved, was quite naturally adaptable as a Jewish explanation.

maryhelena · 03-05-2013, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

That the story that Jesus was Fathered by a HOLY Ghost or the Son of God was known BEFORE Celsus wrote "True Discourse, is no evidence that the story of of 'Jebus' having an illegitimate birth was not known to Celsus BEFORE he wrote "True Discourse".
Logic would say he wrote the claim only because he was aware of the claim, there is no way of determining for how long he may have been aware of the claim.
If it arose out of a pre-christian Jewish work called the Toledot Yeshu, he may well have known it all of his adult life, and the Tolodot tale may even date to the BCE era.
There are many Jewish scholars that say the original Tolodot Yeshu had nothing at all to do with the latter 'Jebus the Christ', but is really an old Jewish tale about a different pre-christian 'Jebus', a Jewish magician.
Which given the situation that evolved, was quite naturally adaptable as a Jewish explanation.

Quite - and so today - the Toledot story is blacklisted as of no consequence for the gospel Jesus story. It's just a Jewish parody of the gospel story etc. Which means that Christians don't have to deal with it's nativity story set in the time of Alexander Jannaeus. I can understand all that - but I don't see why the ahistoricists/mythicists have to sing the same tune....

aa5874 · 03-05-2013, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The Justin texts are of little corroborative benefit, and yes, I was referring to official Christianity. There is no evidence that they developed with anything other than a set of four despite the contradictions among them.
All the claims otherwise are pure speculation dressed as fact.
The four most likely served to appeal to four different audiences simultaneously.
The claims concerning the heretics always revolve around these four. There were never others such as the life of Jesus according to the Gospel of Anthony or of Edward etc. Nor is there any evidence that a set of gospels accepted was less or more than four.

Justin Martyr is evidence against you. Justin devolped his theology WITHOUT ever naming the Four Gospels.

Justin even admitted that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the Writings of the Prophets that were used in the Churches.

First Apology

Quote:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits...

There were other persons called Christians who used some other sources and BLASPHEMED God and Jesus according to Justin.

Dialogue with Trypho XXXV

Quote:

For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.)

Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names..

It is a complete fallacy that Christians of antiquity used only the Four Gospels. Some used NONE at all.

Christians of antiquity like Theophilus of Antioch and Athenagoras of Athens wrote NOTHING of the Jesus story and did NOT worship the character called Jesus at all in their writings.

Duvduv · 03-05-2013, 11:10 AM

Yeshu as a magician and a deceiver (NOT a false messiah or divine being) is contained in the Talmud.

Personally I am not even convinced that Toldoth Yeshu was written by a Jew at all, and as lampoons or parodies go, the various versions of the Toldoth itself are confused while reflecting mature Christian ideas about the trinity, virgin birth etc.

aa5874 · 03-05-2013, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

That the story that Jesus was Fathered by a HOLY Ghost or the Son of God was known BEFORE Celsus wrote "True Discourse, is no evidence that the story of of 'Jebus' having an illegitimate birth was not known to Celsus BEFORE he wrote "True Discourse".

Well, please provide the evidence that the illegimate birth was known to Celsus??

You are arguing from imagination.

The story of Jesus is NOT an historical account, Jesus of Nazareth did NOT ever exist, so it is completely illogical that Celsus could have known that Jesus of Nazareth was illegitimate.

I no longer accept imagination as evidence. I need sources.

Sheshbazzar · 03-05-2013, 11:34 AM

An important point to remember about these Markan 'son of god' verses is that all believers were accounted as being sons of god, so Jebus need not be thought of -in the Markan context- as being THE exclusive son of god.
Same with his references to his father in heaven, he did not -in the Markan context- use it as an exclusive relationship applying only to himself;

Quote:

'And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.' (Mar 11:25)

Quote:

Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Idicative of the believer having the same Father he had, and the same relationship to that 'Father' in heaven as he had.
Latter 'christian' books elevated him above what is presented in Mark.
Finally making him to be 'God the Father', giving rise to the silly situations where he prays to himsel, to grant to himself that his own 'will be done'.

aa5874 · 03-05-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

An important point to remember about these Markan 'son of god' verses is that all believers were accounted as being sons of god, so Jebus need not be thought of -in the Markan context- as being THE exclusive son of god.
Same with his references to his father in heaven, he did not -in the Markan context- use it as an exclusive relationship applying only to himself;

Quote:

'And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.' (Mar 11:25)

Quote:

Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Idicative of the believer having the same Father he had, and the same relationship to that 'Father' in heaven as he had.
Latter 'christian' books elevated him above what is presented in Mark.
Finally making him to be 'God the Father', giving rise to the silly situations where he prays to himsel, to grant to himself that his own 'will be done'.

Only Jesus in the Entire gMark is SPECIFICALLY identified as the Son of God and ACTED as one who was NOT human.

If everybody was and known to be the Son of God in gMark then it would have been of no real value to claim Jesus was his son.

Jesus in gMark was shown to have done things that could NOT have been done by anyone with the Anatomy and Specific Gravity of a human being.

How many times must I go through the same thing???

Which man can walk on the sea?? See Mark 6

Which man can Instantly transfigure?? See Mark 9

Which man can resurrect when he is dead?? See Mark 16

Only the Son of God--Jesus of Nazareth.

The gMark story is extremely, extremely easy to understand.

It is a monstrous fable that the Jews caused Jesus, the Son of God to be killed.

Sheshbazzar · 03-05-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Well, please provide the evidence that the illegimate birth was known to Celsus??
You are arguing from imagination.

Celsus certainly made the claim. How do you think Celsus came by it?

Note that even Origen and christianity has always claimed that Celus got his claim from the Jews.
What argument from your imagination are you going to employ to counter these 2nd century reports?

Quote:

The story of Jesus is NOT an historical account, Jesus of Nazareth did NOT ever exist, so it is completely illogical that Celsus could have known that Jesus of Nazareth was illegitimate.

You are missing the point by a mile. I agree with you that Jebus of Nazareth did NOT ever exist. But the STORY did, and the Tolodot STORY also did.
Celsus could well have known both STORIES, that would not mean that either STORY was a historical account.
Only that Celsus used one STORY to discredit the claims of he other STORY, neither one of which had to be any accurate history.

Iskander · 03-05-2013, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

N/A

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Yeshu as a magician and a deceiver (NOT a false messiah or divine being) is contained in the Talmud.

Please, could you explain what you mean? I am an ignorant man seeking knowledge.

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03-05-2013, 10:49 AM	#132
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	That the story that Jesus was Fathered by a HOLY Ghost or the Son of God was known BEFORE Celsus wrote "True Discourse, is no evidence that the story of of 'Jebus' having an illegitimate birth was not known to Celsus BEFORE he wrote "True Discourse". Logic would say he wrote the claim only because he was aware of the claim, there is no way of determining for how long he may have been aware of the claim. If it arose out of a pre-christian Jewish work called the Toledot Yeshu, he may well have known it all of his adult life, and the Tolodot tale may even date to the BCE era. There are many Jewish scholars that say the original Tolodot Yeshu had nothing at all to do with the latter 'Jebus the Christ', but is really an old Jewish tale about a different pre-christian 'Jebus', a Jewish magician. Which given the situation that evolved, was quite naturally adaptable as a Jewish explanation.

03-05-2013, 11:10 AM	#135
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Yeshu as a magician and a deceiver (NOT a false messiah or divine being) is contained in the Talmud. Personally I am not even convinced that Toldoth Yeshu was written by a Jew at all, and as lampoons or parodies go, the various versions of the Toldoth itself are confused while reflecting mature Christian ideas about the trinity, virgin birth etc.

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