makerowner

Who most likely never existed.

You keep contradicting yourself. Is the prophecy fulfilled or not, in your opinion? If yes, please explain how the current state of Israel fulfills God's promise to give the whole land of Canaan. If not, then please explain how the modern state of Israel is proof of God's existence.

arnoldo

You fail to realize that we are living in the "time of the gentiles." Israel is currently in it's embryonic stage however once the millenium begins Israel will inherit the full promises of God. The fact that Israel is in existence is undeniable proof of God' existence.

makerowner

So basically, you've got nothing, so you'll just repeat your assertions.
What is "the time of the gentiles"? How do you know we're in it? How does Israel's existence prove God's existence? Specifics please, not just vague assertions. And give verse citations.

arnoldo

Without quoting a bunch of scripture and be labeled as "preaching" the time of gentiles basically began once the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans around 70 AD. This is a historical fact. There are various prophecies which state that a new Jewish temple will be built once again which will , in general terms, signal the end of the age of the gentiles. As far as you next question; Do you have proof God doesn't exist?

makerowner

I specifically asked you for verse citations. I can't find the phrase "time of gentiles" in the Bible, so I want to know where you get it from, and what verses you think support that idea.
What prophecies are you referring to? Verse citations please. And as I'm sure you know, no new Jewish temple has been built, so I'm not sure what you're getting at anyway.

This is a red herring. The OP states that Israel's existence is proof of God's existence. You seem to agree with that statement, so I've asked you to explain it. I'll quote what I said before:

Johnny Skeptic

If prophecy is more of a sign to believers rather than unbelievers, why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander? As it was, generations of believers died without seeing the Tyre prophecy fulfilled in spite of Ezekiel calling Nebuchadnezzar "a king of kings." No one would predict that a kings of kings would invade a kingdom and fail to conquer it at 14 years of trying. If anything, that would have weakened the faith of believers, and strengthened the faith of generations of Tyrians. Since God did not tell Ezekiel about Alexander, it is obvious that he did not intend for the Tyre prophecy to be a sign for believers for several generations, and even through today since if God had mentioned Alexander, that would have strengthed the faith of Christians who are alive today, and would have increased the size of the Christian church.

Johnny Skeptic

That is correct, but not the nation that Genesis 17:8 predicted. The key words in Genesis 17:8 are "all," and "everlasting." The partition of Palestine in 1948 failed on both counts. The partition did not include anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and you certainly cannot start an everlasting covenant without having all of the land of Canaan.

Genesis 17:8 demolishes all of your arguments. None of it has been fulfilled. A Jewish nation will not do unless it occupies all of Palestine. Otherwise, you might as well claim that if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine that that would be a fulfilled prophecy. Is that what you would like to claim?

It is interesting to note that an everlasting convenant cannot start unless the Jews control all of Palestine. Today, Jews do not control anywhere near all of Palestine.

But anyone would be concerned with instability in the most productive oil producing region in the entire world. If Jews and Palestinians were contesting land in a remote Austrailian desert that had no natural resources, all of the nations on earth most certainly would not be concerned with that.

The partition of Palestine was a self-fulling prophecy. If the Bible had never mentioned Jews, the partition of Palestine in 1948 would not have happened.

Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_fulfilling_prophecy

Christians and Jews believe that God made a land promise to Abraham and his descendants. The Israeli Declaration of Statehood says that Jews were recovering land that God originally gave to them. How much more incentive for a self-fulfilling prophecy do you need? All that it took to accomplish the partition of Palestine was military power. The Allies won the Second World War. If the Axis powers had won the Second World War, Palestine would not have been partitioned. The United States emerged from the second world war as the greatest military and economic power in the world hands down. Germany was in ruin, along with Japan, and Russia was in ruin to a great extent. The United States was helping many countries recover from the war. No nation or group of nations were in a position to contest the U.S.'s desire that Palestine be partitioned, and that control of Jerusalem be given to the Jews.

arnoldo

"Time of the Gentiles" is refered to in Luke 21


Israel returning to it's land was prophetic and so will the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in the future.

You have your faith on the origin of man and so do I. I take it you don't have proof God doesn't exist?

The simple fact that Israel exists doesn't mean God's promises are fulfilled, merely it will be one day. That's why it's called prophecy,ie, somehting that will happen in the future.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Did Abraham believe that God was going to give him the land of Canaan as an everlasting convenant?

Your "good behavior" argument does not work. First of all, I suspect that that argument was invented when, contrary Abraham's expectations, the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, in which case the "good behavior" argument was invented AFTER THE FACT went it became obvious that God had no intention of giving Abraham's group the land of Canaan. It is quite embarrassing to you that here we are 4,000 years later, and Jews still do not occupy nearly all of the land of Canaan, and an everlasting convenant cannot begin until the Jews occupy all of the land of Canaan.

Predictions that the Jews would be scattered were made AFTER the Jews had been kicked out of Palestine, and therefore were not predictions at all.

Anyway, a loving, moral God would never have punished Jewish babies for their parents' disobedience.

arnoldo

Well, for one thing the word "everlasting" may be a mistranslation to begin with. In any event Abraham took God's promise by faith not by sight. Yes, the land will one day entirely be in Israel's possession once the time of the gentiles is over. That's why it's called a prophecy,ie, something that will happen in the future.