gnosis92

Ive not read Philo or Josepheus nor Talmud,

I have taken a cursory glance at Rabbinic writings, and I am aware of the centrality of the Torah in Jewish religious and rabbinic life. the Torah is central in the Talmud if wiki is right on this.

I do not know how central the Torah is in Philo and Josepheus writings, but

Jesus & Paul don't seem very Torah-obsessed, in the way that characterizes modern Orthodox Judaism. Jesus and Paul don't seem to spend much time commenting on the Torah. Jesus seemed to prefer to introduce his own parables rather than comment on Torah, and he doesn't seem to connect his own teachings, to Torah. Paul seems to write mostly of Christ's resurrection, rather than Torah interpretation. Is this typical of religious Jews of first century CE?

I aware that there are MJ who say Jesus never existed. Still it strikes me as puzzling that the figure depicted in the Gospels seems to lack much interest in Torah, given it was written by Jews, and Paul, who was a Pharisee, which would become Orthodox Judaism.

I don't want to turn this into a MJ thread, but it does surprise me that the Gospels do not depict a messiah who doesn't make every other verse about the Torah. Other messiahs whose historicity are not questioned, like that Hasidic Jew who in New York, who when I google i get some guy named Schneerson, stressed Torah observance.

Toto

If you find a copy of Hyam Maccoby's The Myth-Maker, Paul and the Invention of Christianity, you will find some discussion of these issues.

Malachi151

Paul said that Jesus made the law obsolete.

There is conflicting information in the Gospels about the law, but the writer of Mark, who of course set the tone for all of them, clearly had no love for the law, and had Jesus say that the laws were not important, just doing good to one another, etc.

Gamera

I think you're retrojecting. Judaism in the 1st century was in flux and not like the modern Judaism that arose after the destruction of the Temple.

Indeed much of what we know of 1st century Judaism comes from the Christian scriptures, which were apparently written entirely by Jewish authors about Jewish persons about Jewish matters, such as the meaning of the Law.

Finally an argument can be made that Paul, in setting the tone for Christianity, played a large part in the formation of modern Judaism, which after the destruction of the Temple in many ways developed in conflict with Christianity, defining itself in relationship to a majority Christian culture.

Fortuna

Gnosis,

Flavius Josephus, in Wars tells us about the 3 main sects of Judaism and a summary of their philosophies. Antiquities also has some sections about the 3 sects.(2.2.117 I believe) There is a lot of information in Josephus, especially about the Essenes, but also about the Pharisees and Saduccees as well as the rebel sects, the Zealots and the Sciarii. I have put a section from his Jewish Wars below, but there is much more to be found in Antiquities describing the various Jewish sects and their various approaches to the law.


Gamera ,

I take issue with this and would further say that such info from the Xtian scriptures is incomplete and that they are a biased source about the various sects of Judaism, customs and Torah. Even worse, some aspects they get or make implications that are completely wrong. For example, Jesus is completely out of line driving the "money-changers" out of the temple. That was sanctioned by the law and the temple administration and was necessary for the constant influx of pilgrims to the temple. And technically, how could a [unmarried] prostitute ever commit adultery ?
Using only Xtian scriptures you would know nothing about the Essenes, very little about the Saduccees, and a very skewed view of the Pharisees.

There is considerably more information about the various sects and customs in Josephus. For Torah interpretation the Talmud(s) are far more comprehensive and there you will find stories and many commentaries refering back to and from this period.


Here is the section from The Jewish War, at Book 2, chap 8, starting at paragraph 2. Here Josephus is describing the 3 main sects of Judaism of the first century, the Essenes, Saduccees and Pharisees.

Essenes

Pharisees


Sadducees