Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chaucer · 02-19-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The character of Pilate in the gospels is completely at variance with the his character in Philo and Josephus, to the point that later Christians turned Pilate into a secret Christian sympathizer and made his wife a saint.

There is this tidbit that made its way into Luke's gospel, however:

Quote:

Luke 13:1
At that very time there were some present who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

Some sympathizer! ;-)

Chaucer

Chaucer · 02-19-2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

... And BTW, what you first said about "fundies" also carries the more general implication that any atheist at all who is an historicist for any reason -- never mind Josephus and the whole "legomenou" question -- is automatically a fundamentalist. I wonder what plenty of atheists here who are historicists for their own reasons would say about that. If that isn't a slur, I'd like to know what is.

Chaucer

Just so the lurkers here are clear about your special brand of logic, here is what I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

It has been argued lamely by the fundies that the turn of phrase "so-called Christ" is really a mark of disrespect by Josephus.

There is no implication whatsoever regarding atheists in the statement I made. It was simply a comment on a passage from G.A.Wells (The Historical Evidence for Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk), Prometheus, 1988, p. 211). But yes, naturally, if you can show me a published title by an 'atheist' arguing along the same lines, I will be pleased to revise my sentence to read 'by the fundies and atheist hotheads alike'.

Jiri

Evidently, you are ignoring the injunction against continuing this in this thread. Why? Do you have special dispensation?

As I've already said, I'm familiar with a Mr. N____, who is an atheist who does indeed argue the "so-called" interpretation, but since it would mean invading his privacy to identify him further, my hands are tied <Shrug>. I'll just have to wait until an atheist comes along here who expresses the same interpretation and also the same disgust at your slur. Since I have already encountered such an atheist, I know such atheists are out there. Evidently, we must find a second such atheist before your evident slur is acknowledged and withdrawn. Very well. That's O.K., I can wait. That way, it will be the sweeter when that day comes -- unless you want to withdraw your "fundie" characterization now, of course.

Chaucer

Chaucer · 02-19-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

"This man was called Adam, which in the Hebrew tongue signifies one that is red..." AJ 1.1

"...but the name it has now has been by change given it from one of the sons of Mesraim, who was called Lybyos." AJ 1.6

Well, the two I've culled here from the ones assembled by ApostateAbe plainly cite individuals, so my thanks.

Best,

Chaucer

Toto · 02-19-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no!

Jesus did not condemn Pilate here, and this event is treated as a natural disaster. comment:

Quote:

1 [1-5] The death of the Galileans at the hands of Pilate (Luke 13:1) and the accidental death of those on whom the tower fell (Luke 13:4) are presented by the Lucan Jesus as timely reminders of the need for all to repent, for the victims of these tragedies should not be considered outstanding sinners who were singled out for punishment.

2 [1] The slaughter of the Galileans by Pilate is unknown outside Luke . . .

Chaucer · 02-19-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no!

Jesus did not condemn Pilate here, and this event is treated as a natural disaster. comment:

Quote:

1 [1-5] The death of the Galileans at the hands of Pilate (Luke 13:1) and the accidental death of those on whom the tower fell (Luke 13:4) are presented by the Lucan Jesus as timely reminders of the need for all to repent, for the victims of these tragedies should not be considered outstanding sinners who were singled out for punishment.

2 [1] The slaughter of the Galileans by Pilate is unknown outside Luke . . .

All of which has nothing to do with the fact that Luke here is plainly not depicting Pilate as a sympathizer, at least!

Chaucer

show_no_mercy · 02-19-2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

"This man was called Adam, which in the Hebrew tongue signifies one that is red..." AJ 1.1

"...but the name it has now has been by change given it from one of the sons of Mesraim, who was called Lybyos." AJ 1.6

Well, the two I've culled here from the ones assembled by ApostateAbe plainly cite individuals, so my thanks.

Best,

Chaucer

Τhe one referring to Adam don't say "legomenou", but it's derived from the other Greek word for "call" (καλεω) which Josephus uses more often.

Chaucer · 02-19-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

Well, the two I've culled here from the ones assembled by ApostateAbe plainly cite individuals, so my thanks.

Best,

Chaucer

Τhe one referring to Adam don't say "legomenou", but it's derived from the other Greek word for "call" (καλεω) which Josephus uses more often.

Appreciate the sharp catch. I'm quite happy with Ptolemy and Lybyos, thank you.

Chaucer

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