Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 05-11-2010, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

So, the Pauline writer LIFTED words from Hebrew Scripture that was ATTRIBUTED to the God of the Jews and then FALSELY claimed that the very God has given Jesus a name above every other name and that every knee shall bow before Jesus when no such thing ever actually happened.

The words in Isaiah 45.23 are in reference to GOD NOT Jesus.

<snip>

JESUS was not given a NAME above every other name, based on Hebrew Scripture, it was the GOD of the Jews, the supposed Creator who gave HIMSELF a name above EVERY OTHER NAME and to WHOM every knee shall bow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In the 4th century, Constantine made Jesus the NEW GOD of Rome. The 4th century is a likely time when "Paul" the possible apostle of Constantine gave JESUS a name ABOVE all other Names and to WHOM every knee should bow on EARTH.

<snip>

De 4:39 -

I'm not sure from what theological perspective these are written.

Essentially, the Early Church came to the conclusion very early on that Jesus had done things, had lived a role, that was reserved for God. This realisation must have come early on in the church, for Paul to make use of Isaiah 45:23 in the way he did, which as you rightly observe is a usage only suitable for God.

What you say about the Early Church cannot be confirmed as true. The writings of Justin Martyr contradicts you. Justin Martyr mentions the activities of a typical day of worship and not one mention is made of Paul or the Pauline writings.

Up the middle of the 2nd century there is no known influence by the Pauline writings on Justin Martyr.

Examine Justin Martyr's "First Apology" LXVII..

Quote:

...And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration...

There is nothing about Paul or the Pauline writings anywhere. Up to the middle of the second century Jesus believers were influenced by the MEMOIRS of the Apostles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

Now there were precedents in Judaism for this kind of thing. The pillar of cloud, Wisdom, the Torah, the presence in the tabernacle, were all representations of the presence of the unknowable God. The early Christians believed that Jesus represented another manifestation of this type.

We have no precedent in Judaism for the worship of a supposedly KNOWN MAN as a God. We have the writings of Philo and Josephus and they cannot account for a man who was worshiped as a God and was equal to the God of the Jews who had the power to forgive the sins of Jews and to whom every Jew would have to bow..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

...And it seems to have been relatively uncontroversial to the Early Church. We know Paul did have tremendous problems with Torah observation, because it smacks you in the face every time you read him. But his scribbling of Jesus as on the divine side of the equation didn't create these ferocious arguments, and survived his death with ease.

But, when you say "him" who are you really referring to?

More than one person used the name "Paul" to write Epistles and virtually all the Epistles have passages that are DISPUTED to have been written by "him", whomever "he" was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

...My personal take on it is that Jesus said things and did things in his life which pointed his most close companions towards the conclusion, and this process was completed by the clear actions of the Holy Spirit and a reading of various bits of Scripture.

I am not really interested in your "personal take". I need sources of antiquity that can support your "personal take".

The ABUNDANCE of EVIDENCE from antiquity tends to contradict your "personal take." There was no JESUS before Paul supposedly died if you TAKE into account the writings of Philo and Josephus.

mountainman · 05-11-2010, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You must follow the mythical fiction stories of Jesus, the disciples and Paul just as they were presented.

ONCE upon a time, Jesus was conceived ....

There is no need to speculate.

But what if speculation leads to why this story was written? I for one, would really like to know why non-Jewish men decided to create a story about a new god-man, a Jewish one at that, when clearly another god-man was not needed in Rome.

GOLD and ABSOLUTE POWER

All the other god-men and god-women of the Graeco Roman Empire were decidedly Hellenistic. These god-men and god-women of the Graeco Roman Empire had attracted the sponsorship of all the Roman Emperors, under their role of "Pontifex Maximus" from the beginning of the Roman Empire. These god-men and god-women of the Graeco Roman Empire at the time of Constantine's rise to supreme and absolute military supremacy boasted most ancient and most highly revered temples and shrines which were ubiquitously scattered throughout the entire Roman empire.

Constantine decided to sponsor a Jewish God so that the god-men and god-women of the Graeco Roman Empire would be rightlfully perceived as redundant. With a Jewish god man, the god-men and god-women of the Graeco Roman Empire would not longer rightfully require their temples and shrines, they would no longer need their gold and silver and treasure and scupture and art works and all the associated literature associated with the god-men and god-women of the Graeco Roman Empire (See Nag Hammadi).

Cambridge Ancient History Volume 12
OFFICIAL RELIGION

p.412

Religion in the Roman Empire was governed by the princeps, as "Pontifex Maximus" a member of all priestly colleges and responsible for all public morals and well being.

The following is evidenced by coins and temple foundations:

Roman Imperial Sponsorship of Graeco-Roman Religions until BULLNECK

Claudius: magnified the cult of Cybele.
Gauis: in Rome introduced Osiris (and other Egyptian deities accepted in Italy)
Vespasian: favored Isis and Sarapis.
Domitian: was a benefactor of Isis, Minerva and Jupiter
Hadrian: built the temple of Venus and restored many temples in Rome.
Severan Dynasty: sponsored Bacchus, Hercules and Sarapis.
Illyrian Dynasty: were devoted to Vesta.
Aurelian: built the temple of Sol Invictus, celebrated 25th December and established priestly colleges.
Diocletian: supported Sol Invictus, Isis, Sarapis, Jupiter and Hercules.

The Jewish god man was a value asset to a Pontifex Maximus with the mentality of a gangster who was looking to make as much gold as possible in the shortest amount of time. It also guaranteed that Pontifex Maximus absolute control of the religious market in the Roman Empire. All that would be required was some sort of fabricated documents by which the semblance of authenticity might be mooted. The army could take care of the controversy of the fine details. See the Council of Nicaea.

mountainman · 05-11-2010, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Yep. That’s more or less it in a nutshell.

Fwiw, in Romans 14:8-11 the Pauline writer LIFTED Isaiah 45:23 LXX – not the Hebrew version. You can tell because of the way he uses the word κυριεύωin in verse 9, and by the presence of the word θεός in verse 11. The Pauline writer of Romans 14:8-11 never heard of Yahweh – or else he just didn’t give a sh*t.

In the 4th century, Constantine made Jesus the NEW GOD of Rome. The 4th century is a likely time when "Paul" the possible apostle of Constantine gave JESUS a name ABOVE all other Names and to WHOM every knee should bow on EARTH.

In the OT, the God of the Jews is called the "LORD GOD" but in the Pauline writings Jesus is called the "LORD JESUS" and whenever the words "GOD" and "JESUS" are in the same verse, ONLY JESUS is called LORD.

Did the servants of Jesus fight for Constantine? (See Jhn 18:36)
Or were they too busy fabricating the new testament in the scriptorium?

aa5874 · 05-12-2010, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In the 4th century, Constantine made Jesus the NEW GOD of Rome. The 4th century is a likely time when "Paul" the possible apostle of Constantine gave JESUS a name ABOVE all other Names and to WHOM every knee should bow on EARTH.

In the OT, the God of the Jews is called the "LORD GOD" but in the Pauline writings Jesus is called the "LORD JESUS" and whenever the words "GOD" and "JESUS" are in the same verse, ONLY JESUS is called LORD.

Did the servants of Jesus fight for Constantine? (See Jhn 18:36)
Or were they too busy fabricating the new testament in the scriptorium?

When Constantine gave JESUS a NAME ABOVE EVERY OTHER NAME in the Roman Empire he MUST HAVE sent out his APOSTLES to tell EVERY KNEE to BOW before the NEW GOD of the ROMAN EMPIRE or RECEIVE DAMNATION.

And the Pauline writers, the apostles of Constantine, did travel all over the Roman Empire with the following message.

Romans 13.2

Quote:

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinances of God, and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation..

mountainman · 05-15-2010, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Did the servants of Jesus fight for Constantine? (See Jhn 18:36)
Or were they too busy fabricating the new testament in the scriptorium?

When Constantine gave JESUS a NAME ABOVE EVERY OTHER NAME in the Roman Empire he MUST HAVE sent out his APOSTLES

"Agents" like Osius. Constantine had dismissed the Praetorian Guard probably long before he took Rome (312 CE), and was continually surrounded by an elite group of barbarian chieftains.

Quote:

to tell EVERY KNEE to BOW before the NEW GOD of the ROMAN EMPIRE or RECEIVE DAMNATION.

And the Pauline writers, the apostles of Constantine, did travel all over the Roman Empire with the following message.

Romans 13.2

Quote:

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinances of God, and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation..

At that time c.324/325 CE I think we are entitled to remark that at least two major phenomena were triggered:

(1) The Arian Controversy which followed the five sophisms of Arius.
(2) The continued authorship and imperial prohibition of "The Gnostic Gospels and Acts"

These two phenomenom may be related to the resistance of the Eastern Greek "gentiles" particularly from The City of Alexander.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.