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stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:19 AM

The Origen citation is not from here http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...0Jeremiam_.pdf

stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:22 AM

I found a fuller Greek text but can't find the reference still

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...20Jeremiam.pdf

stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:29 AM

Quote:

How do you know this. Isn't the text of Luke 18:19b the same as that of Mk. 10:18b?

I was just developing what Kirsopp Lake said in his article "The Caesarean text of the Gospel of Mark." That ο πατηρ was a “characteristic Alexandrian variant” witnessed in Clement of Alexandria and others.

stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:36 AM

On the text being Alexandrian:

Quote:

It is also noteworthy that Origen repeats the characteristic Alexandrian variant (God the Father) in Mark x. 18. The whole evidence shows two points clearly, and suggests other possibilities. It is clear that (1) Origen used the Neutral text in the books of the Commentary on John which he wrote soon after his arrival in Caesarea; (2) in his later writings he used the text of family. It is possible that he used either the Neutral text or the text of family 0 while in Alexandria; there is not enough evidence to settle the point, but what there is somewhat favors family 0. There is also one striking variant which would connect his text with that used by Clement of Alexandria. Thus, so far as the evidence of Origen is concerned, there is no reason to suppose that he used the Neutral text in Alexandria, and then abandoned it, or was unable to find it, in Caesarea. On the contrary, it is certain that the Neutral text during his first years in Caesarea, and it is quite doubtful whether he ever had used it before. (p. 277)

stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:41 AM

The witnesses for this reading =

those of Mark (Irenaeus AH 1.20)
Clement of Alexandrian Stromata 5
Origen

I have always maintained that 'those of Mark' are just members of Clement's Alexandrian tradition hence the text is the variant Gospel of Mark cited in the Letter to Theodore and other places in Clement's works. Many have already noted that Clement's citation of what is apparently Alexandrian tradition in Stromata 6 is often a verbatim citation of Irenaeus's heretical group associated with Mark (= the so-called Marcosians).

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-03-2013, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

And in case there is doubt that this saying "Good Lord" ever existed as part of the material in Mark 10 -

There is no saying "good Lord" in either Mk. 10:18 or Luke 18:1. If you are referring to Mark's and Luke's οὐδεὶς ἀγαθὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς ὁ θεός, why would anyone doubt that this was what Mark or Luke wrote? Is there any MSS evidence that suggests otherwise?

Or are you claiming that in Mk. 10:17 (and Lk. 18:18) we have MS evidence that Jesus was addressed as "good lord"? If so, which MSS attest to this?

Quote:

notice how it is appears along side 'Good Teacher' in Pseudo-Chrysostom's Ascension Homily http://books.google.com/books?id=VuD...%AD%22&f=false

So what? "good teacher" also appears in Mk. 10:17

Καὶ ἐκπορευομένου αὐτοῦ εἰς ὁδὸν προσδραμὼν εἷς καὶ γονυπετήσας αὐτὸν ἐπηρώτα αὐτόν, Διδάσκαλε ἀγαθέ, τί ποιήσω ἵνα ζωὴν αἰώνιον κληρονομήσω; Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Τί με λέγεις ἀγαθόν; οὐδεὶς ἀγαθὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς ὁ θεός.

and Lk. 18:18.

Καὶ ἐπηρώτησέν τις αὐτὸν ἄρχων λέγων, Διδάσκαλε ἀγαθέ, τί ποιήσας ζωὴν αἰώνιον κληρονομήσω; εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Τί με λέγεις ἀγαθόν; οὐδεὶς ἀγαθὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς ὁ θεός.

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:42 AM

No I am claiming that the original reading may have been 'Good Lord.'

stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:43 AM

The reason for its erasure is that it plainly shows that Jesus wasn't the Jewish God (= the Lord).

stephan huller · 04-03-2013, 07:47 AM

While Irenaeus cites the "Good Teacher" reading he does state the purpose of the Marcosian variant is to show that "He (Jesus) confessed that God who is truly good" as opposed to the Lord. As it stands it is not really a juxtaposition of any kind. As it stands Jesus is merely saying that there is only being who should be acknowledged as good - the Father. It would have more value to the group if it had said good teacher.

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-03-2013, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

No I am claiming that the original reading may have been 'Good Lord.'

And in doing so you are no better than Pete with his emendations of various texts to suit an agenda.

Jeffrey

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04-03-2013, 07:19 AM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Origen citation is not from here http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...0Jeremiam_.pdf

04-03-2013, 07:22 AM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I found a fuller Greek text but can't find the reference still http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...20Jeremiam.pdf

04-03-2013, 07:41 AM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The witnesses for this reading = those of Mark (Irenaeus AH 1.20) Clement of Alexandrian Stromata 5 Origen I have always maintained that 'those of Mark' are just members of Clement's Alexandrian tradition hence the text is the variant Gospel of Mark cited in the Letter to Theodore and other places in Clement's works. Many have already noted that Clement's citation of what is apparently Alexandrian tradition in Stromata 6 is often a verbatim citation of Irenaeus's heretical group associated with Mark (= the so-called Marcosians).

04-03-2013, 07:42 AM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	No I am claiming that the original reading may have been 'Good Lord.'

04-03-2013, 07:43 AM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The reason for its erasure is that it plainly shows that Jesus wasn't the Jewish God (= the Lord).

04-03-2013, 07:47 AM	#19
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	While Irenaeus cites the "Good Teacher" reading he does state the purpose of the Marcosian variant is to show that "He (Jesus) confessed that God who is truly good" as opposed to the Lord. As it stands it is not really a juxtaposition of any kind. As it stands Jesus is merely saying that there is only being who should be acknowledged as good - the Father. It would have more value to the group if it had said good teacher.

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