stephan huller

.

Let us start with the fact that the citation is of Mark rather than Luke and the Alexandrian variant text known to Clement and Origen among others (cf. Epiphanius Panarion). Now the question arises - what does it mean?

It seems obvious to me that the question of the rich man began with the statement "Κύριε ἀγαθέ" (= Good Lord) and has now been changed to the exclamation "Διδάσκαλε ἀγαθέ" (= Good Teacher). Can you see the implications of the change from the Marcionite POV? When Jesus responds ""No one is good, except one, God the Father" he is in effect saying that 'God' (= Elohim/theos) is the only Good one i.e. the Lord is not the Good God.

stephan huller

when you think about, isn't it strange that the Church Fathers never utter "Ὁ Ἀγαθός Κύριος"? Never, never, never (before the fifth century)

stephan huller

And in case there is doubt that this saying "Good Lord" ever existed as part of the material in Mark 10 - notice how it is appears along side 'Good Teacher' in Pseudo-Chrysostom's Ascension Homily http://books.google.com/books?id=VuD...%AD%22&f=false

I for one have always been fascinated by the Pseudo-Chrysostom material. There is a lot of Diatessaronic and variant gospel readings in this material. The author denies the claim of the heretics that the rich man was blamed for addressing Jesus as 'my lord' but because he delayed approaching Jesus. But this is very significant because it appears just before the Secret Mark narrative in the Letter to Theodore. The rich man still sees him as 'the Lord.' Jesus hints that he is not the Lord but God. I think this is why he is ultimately initiated. The initiation was an adoption rite, taking the individual from enslavement to the Lord over to the yoke of the good God.

mountainman

Adamantius, Dialogue of



εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson

Clemens Romanus et Clementina Theol., Pseudo–Clementina (epitome altera auctore Symeone Metaphrasta) [Sp.] (1271: 011)
“Clementinorum epitomae duae, 2nd edn.”, Ed. Dressel, A.R.M.
Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1873.
Section 64, line 1

Ὁ μόνος ἀγαθὸς θεὸς τὰ πάντα καλῶς πεποιηκὼς ἐπὶ σω-
τηρίᾳ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐξαπέστειλε τὸν μονογενῆ αὑτοῦ υἱὸν τὸν
κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν,

Clemens Romanus et Clementina Theol., Pseudo–Clementina (epitome de gestis Petri praemetaphrastica) [Sp.] (1271: 012)
“Clementinorum epitomae duae, 2nd edn.”, Ed. Dressel, A.R.M.
Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1873.
Section 17, line 9

διὸ τοὺς φιλαλήθεις ἔσωθεν χρὴ ἐκ στέρνων βοήσαντας ἐπι-
κουρίαν προσκαλήσασθαι φιλαλήθει λογισμῷ παρὰ τοῦ μόνου ἀγαθοῦ κυρίου δὲ καὶ θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ λαβεῖν,


Origenes Theol., In Jeremiam (homiliae 12–20) (2042: 021)
“Origenes Werke, vol. 3”, Ed. Klostermann, E.
Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1901; Die griechischen christlichen Schriftsteller 6.
Homily 20, section 8, line 32

Ἀλλ' ἐπὶ τούτῳ ἀγαθὸς κύριος ὁ κωλύων τὰς τοιαύτας ἁμαρτίας
τῶν τηλικούτων.


Eusebius Scr. Eccl., Theol., Praeparatio evangelica
Book 11, chapter 21, section 1, line 3

δι' ὧν τέ φησιν· “Ἀγαθὸς κύριος πᾶσι τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν αὐτόν,


Eusebius Scr. Eccl., Theol., Commentarius in Isaiam
Book 1, section 43, line 32

ἀλλ' ὁ ἀγαθὸς κύριος οἶκτον
λαβὼν αὐτῶν φιλανθρωπεύεται καὶ ἀποστέλλει τὸν αὐτοῦ προφήτην παραινῶν
τῷ <Ἄχαζ> ἄφοβον καὶ ἀτάραχον ἑαυτὸν <φυλάττειν>·

Athanasius Theol., Expositiones in Psalmos
Volume 27, page 525, line 5

ὅτι ἀγαθὸς Κύριος·

Basilius Theol., Asceticon magnum sive Quaestiones (regulae brevius tractatae) (2040: 050); MPG 31.
Volume 31, page 1224, line 45

τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς· καὶ τοῦ Ἱερεμίου, Ἀγαθὸς Κύριος τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν αὐτὸν, πλατυτέραν οἶμαι εἶναι τὴν
χρηστότητα,


ἱλάσκεται δὲ τὸν ἀγαθὸν Κύριον ταῖς μεθ' ὑπερβαλ-
λούσης ἐξομολογήσεως φωναῖς.

Ephraem Syrus Theol., Sermones paraenetici ad monachos Aegypti
Oration 50, line 40

ὅπως <ὁ> ἀγαθὸς Κύριος καὶ ἐλεήμων διαφυλάξῃ καὶ σώσῃ ἡμᾶς εἰς τὴν αὐ-
τοῦ βασιλείαν καὶ δόξαν·


Ephraem Syrus Theol., Sermo de uirginitate (4138: 090)
“Ὁσίου Ἐφραίμ τοῦ Σύρου ἔργα, vol. 5”, Ed. Phrantzoles, Konstantinos G.
Thessalonica: Το περιβόλι της Παναγίας, 1994.
Page 190, line 4

αὐτὸς δὲ ἐλύπησας τὸν ἀγαθὸν Κύριον,


Ephraem Syrus Theol., Encomium in magnum Basilium (4138: 154)
“Ὁσίου Ἐφραίμ τοῦ Σύρου ἔργα, vol. 7”, Ed. Phrantzoles, Konstantinos G.
Thessalonica: Το περιβόλι της Παναγίας, 1998.
Page 344, line 15

ἀνύμνησα τὸν σοφὸν καὶ ἀγαθὸν Κύριον,



Joannes Chrysostomus Scr. Eccl., Expositiones in Psalmos
Vol 55, pg 387, ln 42

ὅτι ἀγαθὸς Κύ ριος.


Joannes Chrysostomus Scr. Eccl., Expositiones in Psalmos
Vol 55, pg 388, ln 12

ὅτι ἀγαθὸς Κύριος.




Jeffrey

stephan huller

I guess that shows who's smarter.

stephan huller

Still the references are mostly late. Origen is the only legitimate pre-Nicaean writer. 'Good God' is far more common. I could probably fill the whole screen with references. There is something still to it. The Lord represented judgment and God was the merciful one from Philo through Clement and the rest of the later Church Fathers.

Jeffrey Gibson

How do you know this. Isn't the text of Luke 18:19b the same as that of Mk. 10:18b?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

You said before the 5th century not before 325.

Jeffrey

stephan huller

And I admit you are right. The Origen fragment is interesting because I thought his work on Jeremiah only survived in Latin. But now I see there is a small fragment in Greek. I wonder where it is from.