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Old 03-03-2008, 08:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by FireBrandon View Post
So what texts would you establish as being firsthand eyewitness accounts of the martyrdoms of the early Church?
There aren't any.

The answer to the OP is that there is no real evidence that any disciple of Jesus was ever martyred for his beliefs. They're basically second Century legends about people who cannot even be truly confirmed to have ever existed, much less martyred.

If Josephus' James passage is accepted as completely authentic and untampered (something which is quite open to dispute), then he does mention a James, "the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ" being executed by the high priest but does not say why.

That's about the extent of anything even approaching historical verification for the execution of anyone directly associated Jesus and even that is pretty suspect.
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:07 PM   #12
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Thanks Diogenes. That is helpful. What 2nd century writings maintain the legends of early Christian martyrdom? 1 Clement is one that I know of who at least mentions Peter and Paul, but that reference is scanty and without clarity as to why they were executed. What else is there?

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Old 03-03-2008, 12:37 PM   #13
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According to Tacitus, Christians in Rome died for a lie.

Nero wanted scapegoats.

From what little I know of all-powerful dicatators, when they want scapegoats, they are not usually deterred by people saying that they've been having second thoughts about this whole Christianity thing, and have decided they aren't actually Christians after all, and it has all been a bit of a misunderstanding.
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by FireBrandon View Post
Thanks Diogenes. That is helpful. What 2nd century writings maintain the legends of early Christian martyrdom? 1 Clement is one that I know of who at least mentions Peter and Paul, but that reference is scanty and without clarity as to why they were executed. What else is there?

FireBrandon
As I mentioned on another thread, The Acts of Peter describes Peter being crucified upside down because he didn't want to die in the same fashion as Jesus. Apologists lap that up and repeat it unequivocally, or at best they hedge by calling it "Church legend."

On the other hand, the book details other fantastical accounts such as talking dogs, resurrected tuna fish, and flying magicians. Plus in this book Peter preaches a spiritual resurrection, not a physical one. Just some of the several reasons why this book was rejected for canonization by the Orthodox Christians. But apologists don't mention that. All they talk about is that poor Peter wouldn't die for a lie. Never mind that in the book Peter wasn't killed for his religious preaching or because he claimed to be an eyewitness to a resurrection but because of political meddling. The point is, according to the apologists:

1. Peter was religious
2. Peter died a violent death
3. Therefore God exists
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