Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hope's daughter · 10-05-2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege
Nobody deserves to be treated like this, I hope things work out for you. I would suggest you find a doctor to your own liking that can help you sort things out.

Thank you Sakriledge and Helen. I will be back. Please believe me Soul your post is interesting to me and I do wish to answer. Please give me a chance.

hope's daughter · 10-05-2003, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celsus
I'll assume, firstly, that the Atheist's Handbook is trash. Then I'll assume that "The answer to the Atheist's Handbook" is further rubbish. I'd like to see the year both books were published. I'm having a difficult time convincing J.P. Holding that Evangelicals are at least 30-50 years out of date.

Is this hope's daughter talking? Please, show us your archaeological knowledge.

The point is moot. The 'Apiru/Habiru/Khabiri (that term itself is no longer used)/etc. connection with Hebrew people has been discredited long ago (it was first spotted in the 19th century so I don't see how someone could cite a 1923 find except that he is incredibly unqualified to write a book on archaeology). Further, the existence of Semite people in Egypt is well-attested, particularly under the reign of the Semite Hyksos during the 17th and 16th centuries BCE. Josephus even mentions them as the ancestors of the Jews in Contra Apion (IIRC) There is even stronger attestation for the 'Apiru in the Amarna letters (discovered 1888, dated to around the 14th-13th centuries, smack in the midde of the supposed Exodus), but the discrediting of the connection is more due to the generic nature of the term 'Apiru than anything else--Neils Peter Lemche, in Prelude to Israel's Past: Background and Beginnings to Israel's Past (1998), has some pointed criticisms:
For [late 19th century scholars], the linguistic connection between habiru and the Hebrew 'ibr� was unmistakable. . . .

Two subsequent observations upset these initial and pervasive notions. First, in the Amarna collection, the Hebrews are confined to the letters from Jerusalem and are never mentioned in any letters asided from EA 285-290. This is a bit odd as Jerusalem should be the last place to look for Hebrews; rather, according to 1-2 Samuel, Jerusalem only came into Israelite hands much later, when David conquered the city. Second, it is equally strange that the habiru are absent in letters posted from Shechem, although Abdi-Heba [a king of Jerusalem responsible for the Amarna correspondence--see Peter's quote of the Catholic Encyclopaedia (is it the 1902 edition available on line?) refering to Abd Heba] refers to the habiru as being active in the vincinity of Shechem. Here the local prince, the notorious Laba'yu, formed an alliance with the habiru to overturn Egyptian rule, at least according to Abdi-Heba's letters. . .

The Amarna letters mention another group in terms strikingly similar to the ones Abdi-Heba used for the habiru. When the letters were deciphered, scholars were not in doubt as to the identity of this group. This time the group did not carry a Semitic name but a Sumerian name, in several variations: SA.GAZ, SAG.GAZ, or simply GAZ. However the German Orientalist Hugo Winckler soon unlocked the key to this mystery. He discovered that the SA.GAZ was actually another name for the habiru [From footnote: This was confirmed in the Hattusas documents, which used both terms to describe the same group.] The discovery had profound effects. Now it would be incorrect to say that there were too few references to the Hebrews' alias, the habiru; on the contrary there were far too many and from almost every part of the Near East! And more references followed as new texts were found and deciphered. Habiru now showed up in every possible place--even in places never frequented by the forefathers of the Israelites. In short, we possess references to the habiru peope living in such remote places as Asia Minor, Egypt, Elam (modern Persia), as well as in Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia. Moreover, the references are not limited to the Amarna period [1400-1200 BCE] or the Late Bronze Age; they practically litter documents covering all of the second millenium B.C.E.

pp. 138-139

In short, hope's daughter, the find is of no use to you and the fact that the author is unaware of Winckler's deciphering and the subsequent rash of finds puts him several decades out of date. Please try harder next time.

Joel

Joel,

Please know that I am not an expert on anything nor do I claim to be but I am having a difficult time understanding your original post here or atleast the point you are trying to make. Could you simplify your point?

Also I would not call Rev. Wurmbrand's book trash but I can understand why Atheists call Chritsians simple minded and idealistic. We happen to believe that love will rule the day. I know you might see things as far more complex but could you just humor us for once?

HelenM · 10-05-2003, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
Guys I really don't like talking about these issues because they are private and my family have been hurt by them. I appreciate your advice and help but found that almost two years ago I was on another website and shared some beautiful things about my family and my life and the people there were very callous and mean even though they professed Christianity. These people meant to do harm and hurt myself and thought I would roll over and die to but I did not. Many of these people ganged up on me but I would not leave the site because I felt that a person could actually witness over the internet and make a difference. I do not think these people will ever forget hope's daughter. I have found acceptance here probably more acceptance in the short time I have been here and better manners than the places I first named when I came here. That is why I named them guys. You have a good thing here so don't go to these other places. You don't need to. I am here.

hd, it's up to you what you choose to discuss and please feel free to decline to answer any questions I might ask which you'd rather not answer because of their personal nature.

It's not unusual on this board (IIDB I mean, not necessarily 'Elsewhere') for people to ask for help/advice with their relationships. But of course, those who wish to keep such matters private are free to do so.

I read your thread in Bugs and Complaints and I'm going to continue recommending that you don't say "God bless you!" to non-theists but in that too you are free to do as you choose.

Helen

hope's daughter · 10-05-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
hd, it's up to you what you choose to discuss and please feel free to decline to answer any questions I might ask which you'd rather not answer because of their personal nature.

It's not unusual on this board (IIDB I mean, not necessarily 'Elsewhere') for people to ask for help/advice with their relationships. But of course, those who wish to keep such matters private are free to do so.

I read your thread in Bugs and Complaints and I'm going to continue recommending that you don't say "God bless you!" to non-theists but in that too you are free to do as you choose.

Helen

Helen,

I love you! I can not stop being the person that I am. I am such a rebel Helen. It was this way from my youth. This too is in Scripture and speaks to my situation.

I wanted to let you know about your other post I have always suffered for my faith believe it or not. I think many authentic Christains do. matter of fact without suffereing I would conclude that your faith may be shallow and of no use to you but what I was refering to 2 Timothy 1:7 and many experiences I had prior and after being given the diagnosis of bipolar.

I would not mind if anyone here said pink unicorn bless you.

or they could just say hope you have a great day or anything they like...I am not here to crush anyon'e spirit but hope all well.

HelenM · 10-05-2003, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
I can not stop being the person that I am. I am such a rebel Helen. It was this way from my youth. This too is in Scripture and speaks to my situation.

If you are thinking of specific Bible verses could you share them with me? I'm interested to see which ones you're thinking of.

Helen

hope's daughter · 10-05-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
If you are thinking of specific Bible verses could you share them with me? I'm interested to see which ones you're thinking of.

Helen

Actually I am Helen but life of me I can not find the verse and I have a great concordance too. I will have to look it up in one of my note books because I have written it several times in various books i write in. It is only one Bible verse that I am thinking of. I know Soul you think I will never answer your post. This is not true. I have not read and tried to give my brain a rest and am not putting any pressure on myself right now. I hope you understand. My son says there is a movie about Martin Luther that I may see bymyself tonight to relax. I have not seen a movie in I don't know how long. Maybe it is time to treat myself.

Helen I will look for the verse and post it.

HelenM · 10-05-2003, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
My son says there is a movie about Martin Luther that I may see bymyself tonight to relax. I have not seen a movie in I don't know how long. Maybe it is time to treat myself.

I find movies are a great 'brain-break' myself

I've heard good things about that movie too. I might go see it.

Quote:

Helen I will look for the verse and post it.

Thanks - I'll look forward to that

Helen

Soul Invictus · 10-05-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
Thank you Sakriledge and Helen. I will be back. Please believe me Soul your post is interesting to me and I do wish to answer. Please give me a chance.

Watching this thread, I've seen you receiving much support from the members here, which is definitely something that will work in your favor. I do hope things work out for you and your family as well. I'm still following the thread, but as originally posted, there is no rush.

hope's daughter · 10-05-2003, 11:26 PM

Helen,

People are funny creatures. They love to hear about life's dirty tricks to others. Love gossip and juicy tid bits. Well I did not find the scripture yet (I will) but I thought instead I would post the other side of the coin. Tonight my husband came over to say he was sorry for what happened on the night of the 11th and how he did not mean to scare me. How his antics had made the situation crazy and my sons also stated that they were sorry. He said he knew I would not get over it and he did not want me to say anything because he did not want to do the usual which was to make me feel false guilt. I know part of our craziness as a famity during the 11th of Aug- 26 of Aug was a battle of wills. Both my husband and myself are very strong willed people. When I walked him out to his truck, we got to talking about his clothes. He is living out of a box in his truck. I told him I would wash his clothes (I even ironed them like old times). He is sleeping at a vacant house. So when he comes home to get his clothes in the morning I will tell him to take a bath and then I am going to cook him breakfast. I still don't know how to feel about alot of things but I think what my husband has been afraid of is loosing me. To what I do not know. I am not going anywhere. I am living at the house. I guess when I got mad, canceled our appointment to see the counselor and told him divorce because he was calling the EMTs, he thought I meant it and was trying desperately to hold onto to me. Does this make sense to you Helen? Thought by trying to exert himself over me that he could keep me. This is a strange situation indeed.

Celsus · 10-06-2003, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
Joel,

Please know that I am not an expert on anything nor do I claim to be but I am having a difficult time understanding your original post here or atleast the point you are trying to make. Could you simplify your point?

Ok, hopefully this will do it: The terms "Khabiri," "Apiru," and "Habiru" all refer to the same words actually found on the Ramesses inscription you cited. Initially, the similarity between that term (in whatever variant) and the term "Hebrew" (actually, "Ibri") was thought to be striking confirmation for the presence of Hebrews in Egypt, particularly the construction of the cities of Pithom and Ramses as per Exodus 1:11. However, this was not to be. It turns out that Khabiri/Apiru/Habiru is far too broad a term for "Hebrew." They are found everywhere throughout the Ancient Near East, especially once the connection between that term and the identical Sumerian term, "SA.GAZ" was made. In other words, apologists were back to square one--zero evidence for the Egyptian slavery, and plenty of evidence that it never happened.

Quote:

Also I would not call Rev. Wurmbrand's book trash but I can understand why Atheists call Chritsians simple minded and idealistic. We happen to believe that love will rule the day. I know you might see things as far more complex but could you just humor us for once?

Sorry, but the vast majority of Christian apologetics are completely ignorant of recent archaeological finds, particularly the findings from systematic regional surveys carried out in the 1970s and 80s that made a Hebrew/Israelite conquest of Canaan impossible (there is no consistent layer of destruction in the Canaanite cities of Jericho, Ai, etc. that either (1) falls within the Biblical time scale, or (2) falls close enough together to have been a total conquest as recorded in Joshua (ignoring Biblical chronology). Typically, your book is now completely outdated (if it ever was up-to-date, which I doubt). What scholars and archaeologists does your book mention in its bibliography (if any)?

Joel

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10-05-2003, 11:26 PM	#209
hope's daughter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: middle earth Posts: 601	Helen, People are funny creatures. They love to hear about life's dirty tricks to others. Love gossip and juicy tid bits. Well I did not find the scripture yet (I will) but I thought instead I would post the other side of the coin. Tonight my husband came over to say he was sorry for what happened on the night of the 11th and how he did not mean to scare me. How his antics had made the situation crazy and my sons also stated that they were sorry. He said he knew I would not get over it and he did not want me to say anything because he did not want to do the usual which was to make me feel false guilt. I know part of our craziness as a famity during the 11th of Aug- 26 of Aug was a battle of wills. Both my husband and myself are very strong willed people. When I walked him out to his truck, we got to talking about his clothes. He is living out of a box in his truck. I told him I would wash his clothes (I even ironed them like old times). He is sleeping at a vacant house. So when he comes home to get his clothes in the morning I will tell him to take a bath and then I am going to cook him breakfast. I still don't know how to feel about alot of things but I think what my husband has been afraid of is loosing me. To what I do not know. I am not going anywhere. I am living at the house. I guess when I got mad, canceled our appointment to see the counselor and told him divorce because he was calling the EMTs, he thought I meant it and was trying desperately to hold onto to me. Does this make sense to you Helen? Thought by trying to exert himself over me that he could keep me. This is a strange situation indeed.

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