Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Calzaer · 09-11-2003, 12:59 PM

Oooooh. Sorry, I was thinking some other verse. Duh.

If that's all it takes to be saved, why hang onto the old testament? And what's wrong with homosexuality and pedophilia and theft and murder? I'm still confused.

Mageth · 09-11-2003, 01:06 PM

Sorry, Calzaer, just noticed that I misspelled your name.

The problem comes, though, when you compare Jn. 3:16 with other verses in the NT which prescribe other requirements for not perishing and gaining everlasting life, e.g. repentance, baptism and works, for example:

Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized every one of of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

Mark 16:16: "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned. "

godlessmath · 09-11-2003, 01:11 PM

Here's one:

In Deuteronnomy 30:11-14, Moses reassures his people to keep God's commandments, stating that they are not hard to keep. He writes:

Quote:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up for you in heaven, so that you have to ask 'who will ascend to heaven to get it [the law] and proclaim it to us, so that we may obey it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask 'who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so that we may obey it?' No, the word is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it.

Paul quotes this verse in defense of his none-is-righteous-by-law-but-only-through-faith doctrine in Romans 10:5:

Quote:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note how Paul totally puts words in Moses' mouth, to make him appear to say something he does not say. Hence, not only is this an example of a contradiction in the Bible, concerning doctrines, but it is also an example of Paul being deceptive, as is his usual flavor.

godlessmath · 09-11-2003, 01:18 PM

Or, my second favorite, Romans 7:1-6. Try to follow the legal anology that Paul is trying to make. Now ask, of the Church (us), Christ, and the law, who is supposed to be the woman, the old husband, and the new husband? Then ask, who does Paul have doing the dying and the remarrying?

Roller · 09-11-2003, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey
2 Samuel 24, vs. 1: "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.'"

1 Chronicles 21, vs. 1: "SATAN ROSE up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." As far as I recall, this is in fact the first reference to Satan in the Bible.

Perhaps I'm a bit late with this, but here you can find a nice article about history of Satan.

Sci_Fidelity · 09-11-2003, 02:30 PM

Well this isn't really a contradiction, but I find it quite telling. I have to give credit- I found this over at the JREF forums:

2Kings 19 and Isaiah 37 say exactly the same thing. Word for word. These were supposedly written hundreds of years apart. Conclusion: The bible was edited.

Doctor X · 09-11-2003, 05:04 PM

Or it PROVES JEEeeeeeeeEEEEZUS wrote both!!!

--J.D.

Magus55 · 09-11-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Sorry, Calzaer, just noticed that I misspelled your name.

The problem comes, though, when you compare Jn. 3:16 with other verses in the NT which prescribe other requirements for not perishing and gaining everlasting life, e.g. repentance, baptism and works, for example:

Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized every one of of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

Mark 16:16: "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned. "

Mark 16 is referring to Baptism by the Holy Spirit. Notice how the only thing that condemns is disbelief? If you don't believe in Jesus, you can't be born again and baptised by the Holy Spirit, and are thus condemned. If you believe, you become baptised by the Holy Spirit, and are saved. Its not referring to water baptism.

Magus55 · 09-11-2003, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sci_Fidelity
Well this isn't really a contradiction, but I find it quite telling. I have to give credit- I found this over at the JREF forums:

2Kings 19 and Isaiah 37 say exactly the same thing. Word for word. These were supposedly written hundreds of years apart. Conclusion: The bible was edited.

Faulty assumption. How do you know the only conclusion is that the Bible was edited? Thats quite presumptuous of you.

winstonjen · 09-11-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Faulty assumption. How do you know the only conclusion is that the Bible was edited? Thats quite presumptuous of you.

Because we don't have the originals, and the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH held on to the only copies for quite some time.

09-11-2003, 02:30 PM	#46
Sci_Fidelity Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 595	God repeats himself? Well this isn't really a contradiction, but I find it quite telling. I have to give credit- I found this over at the JREF forums: 2Kings 19 and Isaiah 37 say exactly the same thing. Word for word. These were supposedly written hundreds of years apart. Conclusion: The bible was edited.

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09-11-2003, 12:59 PM	#41
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Oooooh. Sorry, I was thinking some other verse. Duh. If that's all it takes to be saved, why hang onto the old testament? And what's wrong with homosexuality and pedophilia and theft and murder? I'm still confused.

09-11-2003, 01:06 PM	#42
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Sorry, Calzaer, just noticed that I misspelled your name. The problem comes, though, when you compare Jn. 3:16 with other verses in the NT which prescribe other requirements for not perishing and gaining everlasting life, e.g. repentance, baptism and works, for example: Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized every one of of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." Mark 16:16: "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned. "

09-11-2003, 01:18 PM	#44
godlessmath Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 906	Or, my second favorite, Romans 7:1-6. Try to follow the legal anology that Paul is trying to make. Now ask, of the Church (us), Christ, and the law, who is supposed to be the woman, the old husband, and the new husband? Then ask, who does Paul have doing the dying and the remarrying?

09-11-2003, 05:04 PM	#47
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Or it PROVES JEEeeeeeeeEEEEZUS wrote both!!! --J.D.

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