Chili

No and they never were Christian.

Please note that they have the Church Militant as Catholic, the Church Suffering as Purgatorian, and the Church Triumphant as the Saints in Heaven and neither the Church Suffering nor the Church Triumphant are Catholic in practice.

Chili

Catholicism is a mystery religion much like Judaism and neither are Christian.

Both are cold and not lukewarm but if the mind of Christ means to be Christian you better not be lukewarm like saved-sinners are, and so to be hot means to be saved and not a sinner and for this religion must be left behind . . . and thus all saved-sinner churches are lukewarm oxymorons at best.

sotto voce

That's quite true. The above is a hypothetical discussion. In practice, the 'catholic' tag was never fully appropriate. The 'church' was never the monolith that many suppose, for a variety of reasons, the chief of them being that the Vatican simply did not have the resources to impose itself far from Rome. History is a partial record, in both senses of the word, and there may have been even more dissent than we know about, and that the Vatican knew about.

sotto voce

Should read:

History is a partial record, in both senses of the word, and there may have been even more dissent than we know about, and more than the Vatican knew about.

Apologies.

Chili

Catholics have the freedom to believe or not believe and I think they said the Creed in Latin so they would not know what they believed. So how can you be a dissenter if you do not know what you believe? At least I never did, and always thought it is a sinners paradise where freedom reigns and 3 hail Mary's will get you permission to sin some more and 5 might get you a phone number on the way out. Not me, of course, as I was not old enough for that and still remember the priest pounding his fist on the fancy pulpit rail shouting that pennies was not good enough and wanted to see nickles instead. I then also figured our why they had 3 collection rounds and 4 during high Mass so they would get as close to that nickle as they could (and I think my dad figured that they sang 'high masss' so thy could get the fourth round in).

My first attendance was Holy Cummuion mass in grade 2, was it?, and my Catholic school ended in grade 6 and from there we were free to go as we pleased except that mother made us go to church or else we could not go to the bar, etc. and that is just the way it was.

And did I not see a picture once in the Baltimore Cathechism of a stairway to heaven in the back of the church? so that no 'Christian' shall be seen coming through the doors? So then, if they do not know what they believe does it really matter what they believe? and is that maybe done so that 'iconic imprinting' can have the final word?

la70119

Chili, I used to be in the Boston Church of Christ, and when they passed the collection plate around everyone would sing "Seek Ye First The Kingdom Of God" (gMatt 6:33) to get everyone else into the mentality of coughing up the dough for the Church and To God Be The Glory!

Of course, the real glory went to the church leaders and eventually the rank-and-file figured them out for the greedy bastards that they were (but that was long after I left).

Chili

It is the snake who taught them to do that, don't you think? and I doubt that they will ever learn to walk upright.

mountainman

I think the dissent at Nicaea was dealt with by the legions. If they could use the most ancient and highly revered architecture in the empire (the Asclepian temples and libraries and gymnasia) for ballista practice, and publically execute chief pagan priests, those who were not the tall poppies may have thought twice about dissent.

The Vatican certainly knew how to preserve an index of prohibited books from the time of Eusebius and Constantine from the 4th to the 15th century when the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum" was first printed. The problem for the Vatican is that some of these heretical books which were on the index of prohibited books cited by Eusebius in the 4th century are now turning up in manuscript discoveries, and being read by an educated public opinion.

I would like to read Ammianus Marcellinus's obituary to Bullneck, but it seems that this didn't survive the passage of time. The years between 324/325 and the the mid 4th century (where Ammianus starts) are quite "Black Holish". That is there is very little evidence for what happened and what didn't happen. It's almost like this ground has been swept clean of any evidence. What happened in those years is anyone's guess. Charles Freeman's guess is that the Greek intellectual tradition was suppressed under the rules of the Christian emperors.

sotto voce

Ultimately, yes. I'm sure that's right. The mere threat of legions was sufficient.

The message of the new religion, far from being 'Turn the other cheek' was 'Might is right'.

Oh dear.

Perhaps a condition of the continuation of Vatican City State could be that it allows free access by historians to its library. That seems reasonable enough.

The most significant fact about history is that, when it most matters, there isn't any.




Theodosius' bottom line.

Thank you, mountainman, that is informative.

mountainman

Hey Sotto Voce,

You may be interested to know that your nom de plume is mentioned in the Syriac "Acts of Philip". Here is the context:


Quite an amusing account of Phillip the Apostle. I happen to think this is just clear example of another satire, but for some reason very few people agree, because it is not customary to entertain the possibility that the "Christian Story" could have been satirized and/or parodied in the 4th century .... Sometimes the most significant fact about history is that, when it most matters, it is not at first openly recognized ....