John A. Broussard

FLASH!!! AP News Headlines.

George Bush has just announced that the reason he ordered the invasion of Iraq was to prevent the rebuilding of Babylon.

Sven

Oh, an interesting new strategy - let's just pay Lee for doing some work finally ("to get off his lazy ass" in my masters words).

Johnny Skeptic

[quote=Johnny Skeptic] I’ll tell you what Lee, you get sworn statements from George Bush, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell that they will give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt and I will send you a check for $10,000.
I wasn't kidding, Sven. I would send Lee a check for $10,000 if he did what I proposed.

Sven

I didn't think you were kidding. I only mused about the question if this could work in general.

Sauron

Sidetracked?

It is *not* another topic. YOU introduced McDowell into the conversation as one of YOUR sources for your claims. That makes McDowell PART of the conversation. It's too late to try and distance yourself from McDowell now; you opened that can of worms. So questions of the credibility of your source are very much on topic.

He didn't say that, which you well know. He said that they already believe the bible is wrong for 101 reasons. So they have no reason to try to add another reason to the pile of 101 that they already have.

Your logic is flawed, as usual, lee. As far as the muslims are concerned, their reasons are already undeniable and undisputable.

But all of this is an attempt to side-track the discussion and get us to forget the main point, which is:

1. You said that muslims ought to want to try and rebuild Babylon, because it would disprove the bible and prove the quran.
2. You were told several times that your understanding of islam was childish, and that that was not how things worked.
3. I also point-blank told you that islam does not disagree with all points of christianity, so you would need to verify that on this particular point, there was any sort of disagreement.
4. Instead of listening, you posted your proposal to the bibleandquran group on Yahoo.
5. The muslim who responded said that he did NOT disagree with the OT on this point.

You have lost the point and your argument.

But as your chit-chat with the muslims demonstrates, they don't disagree with this prophecy so they have no reason to try and disprove it.

This holds true for muslims rejecting the bible as well: they already have 101 reasons (or more) that they believe are rock-solid and undeniable. So likewise they have no reason to rebuild Babylon. Your argument is a dead-end.

As for skeptics: You've already been told why your line of argument is another dead-end; why do you continue to use it? A dozen times by now:


the Babylon prophecy failed for 8 or 9 other reasons. The facts show that the Isaiah prophecy has ALREADY been invalidated by PAST events. That is why nobody should spend a dime to rebuild Babylon: the disproof happened in 539 BCE, when the city peacefully changed hands to the Persians, contrary to prophecy. Multiple other disproofs happened over the following centuries.

I wouldn't spend any time or money proving that Paris was the capital of France, either.


Unfortunately, Johnny Skeptic did not say that. Care to try reading again?


They might have been.

Or they might have been ignorant, uninformed, or just guessing. They could have just filled in the blanks of their missing information with their over-active fundamentalist imaginations. All conditions of dishonesty that I'm sure you are acquanted with.

Guessing again, I see. Look what a mess that got you into in the first place, and you're still doing it?

You have provided:

• no evidence of sheepfolds being absent;
• no evidence of when Babylon became a swamp;
• no evidence for *how long* that might have been, or if/when it ended;
• no evidence for tents either being there, or being absent;

And now you want us to just accept your newest guess, about what sheep will or won't eat. Don't hold your breath; that guess will also require evidence.

1. You haven't shown that there are swamps OR wetlands in Babylon - or any of the other items in the bullet-point list above;

2. The evidence suggests that sheep are pastured in BOTH wetlands AND swamps, so the artificial distinction you're trying to create doesn't even work in favor of your argument

More of lee's trademark intellectual fraud:

1. If "swamps were where sheep should not be" then there would not be multiple links discussing EXACTLY that point: sheep grazing in swamps and marshes;

2. just because there are issues with swamp and disease with the Masai, does not prove anything about the situation in Babylon. You cannot simply assume the same condition holds true. Not that it matters much, as we'll see in my next point.

3. You're not very good at covering your tracks, lee. Oh, yes -- you quoted from one of my articles talking about disease in the swamps. But you cleverly avoided citing the *entire* section, because it would have undercut your argument. You see, ladies and gentlemen, the sentence right before the one lee_merrill quoted reads as follows:

In the dry season, they move to the swamp, as the swamp retains green pastures and water throughout the year (see Grazing Areas).

So the very article that lee cited contradicts him: it shows that sheep DO belong in the swamp, during certain seasons of the year. And it even tells the beneficial reason for taking sheep there: the swamp retains green pastures and water. And to put the icing on the cake, the article even provides a fricking MAP of the grazing areas in the swamp.

You even have a MAP. Showing GRAZING AREAS. IN THE SWAMP. And you want to continue to insist that this isn't how sheep are grazed?

You're not even a good liar, lee_merrill. I really, REALLY hope that some of your christian buddies are reading this thread now, because I want them to see what a thoroughly dishonest and underhanded debater you are.

And finally -- this isn't a question about where you *think* sheep *ought* to be. No one cares what lee_merrill thinks *should* be done; given your long list of mistakes and bogus assumptions, I wouldn't take your advice on how to shave a dog's rear end. No, this is a question about what the actual real world practice is. You claimed grazing sheep in swamps made no sense and thus it didn't happen. These links prove that it does. So going all the way back to square one: you cannot assume anything about swamps, sheep or Babylon. You need to prove all your claims here.

No, that is not the point.

The point is that you made a specific claim about Babylon - try to stay on topic. That led you to make an invalid assumption about islam and the motivation of iraqis and muslims.

Everything else since then has just been watching you in a slow death spiral as you try to wiggle out of admitting your mistakes.

Sauron

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic]What do I need to do, in order to get $10K? :devil3:

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, so this implies they have a purpose to have the Bible be discredited.

I suppose that is why all Christian apologists have become Muslims! Or Mormons? Or skeptics.

But the matter at hand is to address the arguments, not to say one side has won already. If you neglect the arguments, to be instead insisting you or someone else has won, I shall be not so convinced of your position!

The 101 contradictions were in parts that the Qur'an has no word on, though, so then according to the view you are presenting, he should be the one defending the Bible on these points, not me! Only Muslims are instead posting these points as questioning the Bible, rather than defending it.

It would be a clear demonstration to reasonable people who believe the Bible is God's perfect word, that the Bible is not God's perfect word.

Well, will you provide me with a list of people with e-mail addresses who will abandon skepticism if a serious attempt again is made to rebuild Babylon, if it yet again failed?

Well yes, that was not the chosen topic for the debate. You have also not proven that shepherds did graze their flocks, and Arabs pitch their tents there, either! But this can also be resolved, by having shepherds rest their flocks there, and Arabs on their nomadic ways use that location as a way-station. We really don't have to argue about this!

I think the claim that Muslims believe the Bible wherever it does not differ from the Qur'an (despite the posted contradictions) is the view that is improbable here. That implies that salvation is by faith in Jesus! And that Jesus is the only way to God. Many examples could be quoted, which are quite contrary to Muslim beliefs, but not directly, contrary to the Qur'an.

Not to mention healing, as a result of prayer, and deliverance from attack, both of which, I have some experience of.

But not falsified at will! Babylon, however, can be.

Regards,
Lee

P.S. Sorry, Mr. Sauron, though I wish you well, I just don't think I can have a fruitful further discussion with you, at this point...

Johnny Skeptic

In the opinion of Muslims, it is not a purpose, it is a prior accomplishment, as their 101 disproofs of Christianity clearly show.

The simple answer to that is that Muslims are not interested in the same agenda that you are. The Muslim didn’t sound like he had previously heard of the Babylon prophecy. I assume that most Muslims have never heard of the Babylon prophecy. The Muslim basically said “if the Old Testament says….., then I would hold that to be true.� That is a good indication that he had never previously heard of the Babylon prophecy. Why don’t you ask him? I am quite certain that he would like to hear from you.

One of your problems is that you typically seek to superimpose your own agenda not only upon Muslims and speak for them, whom you know little about even when they tell you what they are about, but upon the majority of Christians as well, about whom you also seem to know little about.

There you go again trying to superimpose your own agenda upon the worldwide Christian community when you haven’t even questioned your pastor and James Holding about this matter, even though I have repeatedly asked you to do so. Why do you continue to refuse to back up your assertions?

I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years. I never heard of the Babylon prophecy until you brought it up. My housekeeper is a fundamentalist Christian. She used to be a missionary, and her dead husband was the pastor of a church. She has studied the Bible for decades, and she studies it every day. She is very knowledgeable about the Bible. I recently asked her about the Babylon prophecy. She told me that she had never heard of it. When I told her what your views are on the subject, she immediately disagreed with you. I wouldn’t be surprised if your pastor knows nothing about the Babylon prophecy. I have four Bible commentaries, including one whose general editor is F. F. Bruce, and none of the commentaries have an approach to the matter that resembles your approach in any way.

James Holding and Glenn Miller have extensive web sites, and if I recall correctly, I did a word search at their web sites and I didn’t find one single defense of the Babylon prophecy.

You asserted “It would be a clear demonstration to reasonable people who believe the Bible is God's perfect word, that the Bible is not God's perfect word,� but you haven’t provided any evidence at all what “reasonable� people believe regarding this issue.

You asked me to provide you with a list of names and e-mail addresses of people “who will abandon skepticism if a serious attempt again is made to rebuild Babylon, if it yet again failed,� but unlike you when you asserted that “reasonable� people (who are these people?) would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, I did not assert that if such an attempt was made and failed that even one skeptic would give up skepticism. I most certainly wouldn’t, and neither would any skeptic who visits this thread, and neither would any skeptic who I personally know.

I asked you to provide me with a list of names and e-mail addresses of Christians who agree with you. You countered by asking me “Well, will you provide me with a list of people with e-mail addresses who will abandon skepticism if a serious attempt again is made to rebuild Babylon, if it yet again failed?� You are not comparing apples with apples. In order to be consistent you should have asked me “Will you please provide me with a list of names and e-mail addresses of skeptics who agree with you that they would not give up skepticism if an attempt was made to rebuild Babylon and the attempt failed again?� I will provide you with twenty names and e-mail addresses of skeptics who agree with my position if you will provide me with only ten names and e-mail addresses of Christians who agree with your position.

It was in fact part of the chosen topics as soon as I mentioned Isaiah 13:20 and you discussed it on a number of occasions. You recently said that you had previously overlooked the verse and that you had added it to your list of pertinent Scriptures regarding the Babylon prophecy, but now you are saying “Well yes, that was not the chosen topic for the debate.�

I never asserted that they did, but you have asserted that the Babylon prophecy has held up pretty well so far. Now you haven’t by chance camped out in Babylon for over two millennia in order to verify your assertion, have you? I am willing to say that we don’t know. Are you?

No one has a vested interest in doing so. Muslims believe that the prophecy is valid. There is no evidence that more than a very few Christians would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt. There is no evidence that even one single skeptic would give up skepticism if another attempt was made to rebuild Babylon and it failed.

What in the cotton pickin’ chicken pluckin’ world are you talking about, Lee? Your knowledge of Islam is conspicuous by its absence. The Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2005 says “Islam recognizes the divine origins of the earlier Hebrew and Christian Scriptures and represents itself as both a restoration and a continuation of their traditions. Because of this, the Qur’an draws on biblical stories and repeats many biblical themes. In particular, the stories of several biblical prophets appear in the Qur’an, some in a condensed form; other stories, such as those of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, are given in elaborate detail and even with subtle revisions of the biblical accounts.�

Now how much more do you wish to embarrass yourself? As the Muslim told you, siemplimente! Kapiche?

Some skeptics get healed too. How do you account to their healings? What kind of deliverance from attacks are you talking about? Are you a Charismatic? You probably know about Dr. John MacArthur. He is, or was, a pastor, radio speaker and author. He wrote a book titled ‘The Charismatics.’ He is not a Charismatic. He said that God would never show favoritism for Christians because if he did a lot of people would become Christians for the wrong reasons.

You are quick to claim answers to prayer when things go your way, but what do you claim when things do not go your way? Do you know of any Christian who has ever had a complete, instantaneous healing of cerebral palsy of multiple sclerosis? Do you know of any Christian who is a quadriplegic who has regained complete use of his hands and legs. Do you know of any Christian who has lost arms or legs who has gotten new arms or legs? I will make it much easier for you, Lee. Have you ever had an instant recovery from a bad cold?

My offer of $10,000 still stands if you will get sworn statements from George Bush, Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell that they will give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt. Actually, I will pay you $10,000 if you will get a sworn statement from just one of them.

Johnny Skeptic

If Lee Merrill prefers to reply to a shorter post than replying to the lengthy post that I previously posted, following is my shorter version:

1 - There is no evidence that a large percentage of Christians would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, or even 10% of Christians for that matter.

2 - There is no evidence that the majority of Muslims believe that if Babylon were to be rebuilt that a good percentage of Christians would give up Christianity.

3 - There is no evidence that Muslims want to discredit the Babylon prophecy.

4 - The Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2005 says that Muslims consider parts of the earlier Hebrew and Christian writings to be sacred, so obviously, but obviously not obvious to Lee Merrill and Josh McDowell, Muslims have no interest whatsoever in discrediting the Babylon prophecy.

5 - There is no evidence that if another attempt to rebuild Babylon failed that even 1% of skeptics would give up skepticism.

6 - As the claimant, Isaiah said that Arabs would never pitch their tents in Babylon, and that shepherds would never graze their flocks there, but the only reasonable proof of that would be records of eyewitness testimonies every ten years from the time of the destruction of Babylon over the next 2,000 years. Even if testimonies favorable to the prophecy had been made, no written records survive from that far back. It is not up to skeptics to disprove the prophecy. They do not need to claim that the prophecy has not been fulfilled. All that they need to do is to be agnostic on the issue, which of course is the best approach. However, Lee Merrill does not have the luxury of being agnostic on the issue. He has yet to learn how difficult it is to be a claimant. Prosecuting attorneys and defense attorneys would tell Lee this, but I doubt that he would accept what they tell him.

Sven

I wonder if you could not spend this money better by simply paying an Iraqi to pitch his tent at the ruins of Babylon... on the other hand, Lee will certainly find another way to wiggle out of this - and to embarrass other Christians on the way by his dishonesty.