Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sharon45 · 12-09-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus
Well then, your earlier statement that "the OT plays NO part" in Judiasm is completely inexplicable. If you mean (your brand of)Judiasm does not accept all the books of the OT, then that becomes a different issue. If you mean that NO Jews accept all the books of the OT, I'm sure you are incorrect. After all, the OT was not written by Christians.

If you mean that you do not use the term Old Testament or accept that there is a New Testament, I understand that.

I am stating what Judaism accepts. The OT is not at all accepted as a part of Judaism, not one word. Only what is written in the Tanach is accepted.

I will give you an example that would apply.

A counterfeit one dollar bill is, across the board, unacceptable. It does not matter how many similarities there are, and it does not matter if there are many who have been fooled into accepting the counterfeit bill, they do not count across the whole.

sharon45 · 12-09-2003, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
[B]I get that incessantly on this board. Despite being born a Jew under the blood line of Abraham, being circumsized under the convenant of God, studying the Torah and Hebrew since I was five, participating in all the feasts and holidays, I'm not a Jew because I believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah. Irritates me to no end, but ignorance and hate is abundant I guess.

You can state as you like, but if you really were born and educated as a Jew as you claim, then, you would have known this well in advance before accepting christ as the Messiah.

You would also know that even though you are not considered a Jew any longer, you still retain a Jewish soul and will be welcomed back once you give up this other religion.

Any Jew with as much of a religious study as you claim, could never become a christian unless they had gone mad.

sharon45 · 12-09-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Only accepted by orthodox Jews maybe, but there are more than one group of Jews you know.

No, all sects of Judaism do not accept the OT, only the Tanach. Each sect is separated by how much each chooses in abserving the laws.

gregor · 12-09-2003, 03:57 PM

Mark 9950

I don't read Numbers 23 as saying God will never be made man or son of man. I simply read it as saying [Up to this point you can trust God's word] because God is not man.

While I enjoy watching the contortions of apologists, this one doesn't trouble me.

(Not that anyone remembers the topic of this thread).

theophilus · 12-09-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Only accepted by orthodox Jews maybe, but there are more than one group of Jews you know.

But the others are wrong, don't you see.

theophilus · 12-09-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sharon45
Again, not at all. When it comes to the different races, yes you are right, but when referring to Judaism, no.

Its not like Judaism has some kind of 'force field'. But when it comes to the beliefs that were created after Judaism, using and abusing its teaching for their own religious needs, it as protected as anything else in a similar attack, such as mathematics or spelling.

Ex.

Judaism is 5+5=10

christianity is 5+5=12

Just because christians don't understand Judaism, you can't change facts just by thinking so, just the same as you can't change mathematics to suit your liking.

So, Paul who was educated by Gamalleil did not understand Judiasm as well as you do? Interesting.

theophilus · 12-09-2003, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sharon45
Any Jew with as much of a religious study as you claim, could never become a christian unless they had gone mad.

Well, there you have it: truth by definition. Any Jew who accepts Christ as the Messiah was not really a Jew or they went crazy.

Apikorus · 12-09-2003, 04:42 PM

Evangelical Christians often engage in the same form of self-delusion. They insist that noone can be a "true Christian" and accept other gods, that noone can be a "true Christian" and doubt in Jesus' divinity, that no "true Christian" who "has a relationship with Jesus Christ" could possibly apostasize, that no "true Christian" could be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness (or Catholic, say some), etc. What all this tells you is simply their own definition of the term "true Christian." Indeed, many groups maintain this sort of fantasy as a defense mechanism against betrayal, and it is not unique to religion.

BTW sharon, we jooz generally don't refer to Jesus as "Christ" since that is a title (and not a last name!), meaning "anointed" along with other messianic baggage that eventually accreted to it. It is an ironic slip for Jews critical of Christianity to rail against "Jesus Christ" or "Christ" since the title implicitly confers special holy status on Jesus.

theophilus · 12-09-2003, 05:50 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Apikorus
Evangelical Christians often engage in the same form of self-delusion. They insist that noone can be a "true Christian" and accept other gods, that noone can be a "true Christian" and doubt in Jesus' divinity, that no "true Christian" who "has a relationship with Jesus Christ" could possibly apostasize, that no "true Christian" could be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness (or Catholic, say some), etc. What all this tells you is simply their own definition of the term "true Christian." Indeed, many groups maintain this sort of fantasy as a defense mechanism against betrayal, and it is not unique to religion.

The difference is, of course (and a BIG difference), that Christianity makes no provision for believing in another God or another "heir" to Christ, ala Mohammed, while Judiasm makes a very definite and important provision for belief in a future Messiah, i.e., future to the OT economy.

So, saying someone was not a real Jew because they came to accept Jesus as the prophesied Messiah is not at all the same as saying someone was not a real Christian who tried to incorporate alien elements, e.g., Buddhism, into Christianity.

Opera Nut · 12-09-2003, 05:59 PM

RE: All this finger pointing amongst Christians over who is and is not a "True Christian" -- I consider Magus55 to be under the same form of delusion that he is a Jew. He thinks he is a Jew but by the standard definition of who is a Jew, he is NOT a Jew, no matter how much you argue with him. Clue: Jews believe in ONE GOD. No Son of God, No Jesus as Messiah, No Holy Spirit. Still waiting for the Messiah.

Jews accept the Old Testament requirements for the Messiah, which I posted a while back(and nobody read, apparently), and Jesus does NOT meet any of those requirements. End of story.

Accepting Jesus as your Messiah (Savior, Christos) is the very definition of Christianity, no matter how many Hebrew words and ritual accoutrements you wrap it in.

"Ignorance and hate" is not what real Jews are about. Magus is living and believing in an oxymoron. He's just switching labels.
I have a pretty good idea of what Jews believe, and I've taken courses in the Old Testament; but I am quoting those scholars who know their Pentateuch. I posted all those requirements for the Messiah in this thread. He has not refuted any of those reasons why Jesus is NOT the Messiah.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

At the above site you can read how Jews for Jesus is a front group for the Southern Baptists to convert Jews by using Hebrew words.

Someday, we'll all get tired of this argument and move to Chapter 2: Judaism and Zionism are NOT the same thing.

[Sigh....]

:banghead:

12-09-2003, 03:57 PM	#74
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Back on topic, perhaps? Mark 9950 I don't read Numbers 23 as saying God will never be made man or son of man. I simply read it as saying [Up to this point you can trust God's word] because God is not man. While I enjoy watching the contortions of apologists, this one doesn't trouble me. (Not that anyone remembers the topic of this thread).

12-09-2003, 05:59 PM	#80
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Cognitive dissonance! Beep Beep!! RE: All this finger pointing amongst Christians over who is and is not a "True Christian" -- I consider Magus55 to be under the same form of delusion that he is a Jew. He thinks he is a Jew but by the standard definition of who is a Jew, he is NOT a Jew, no matter how much you argue with him. Clue: Jews believe in ONE GOD. No Son of God, No Jesus as Messiah, No Holy Spirit. Still waiting for the Messiah. Jews accept the Old Testament requirements for the Messiah, which I posted a while back(and nobody read, apparently), and Jesus does NOT meet any of those requirements. End of story. Accepting Jesus as your Messiah (Savior, Christos) is the very definition of Christianity, no matter how many Hebrew words and ritual accoutrements you wrap it in. "Ignorance and hate" is not what real Jews are about. Magus is living and believing in an oxymoron. He's just switching labels. I have a pretty good idea of what Jews believe, and I've taken courses in the Old Testament; but I am quoting those scholars who know their Pentateuch. I posted all those requirements for the Messiah in this thread. He has not refuted any of those reasons why Jesus is NOT the Messiah. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/ At the above site you can read how Jews for Jesus is a front group for the Southern Baptists to convert Jews by using Hebrew words. Someday, we'll all get tired of this argument and move to Chapter 2: Judaism and Zionism are NOT the same thing. [Sigh....] :banghead:

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12-09-2003, 04:42 PM	#78
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	Evangelical Christians often engage in the same form of self-delusion. They insist that noone can be a "true Christian" and accept other gods, that noone can be a "true Christian" and doubt in Jesus' divinity, that no "true Christian" who "has a relationship with Jesus Christ" could possibly apostasize, that no "true Christian" could be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness (or Catholic, say some), etc. What all this tells you is simply their own definition of the term "true Christian." Indeed, many groups maintain this sort of fantasy as a defense mechanism against betrayal, and it is not unique to religion. BTW sharon, we jooz generally don't refer to Jesus as "Christ" since that is a title (and not a last name!), meaning "anointed" along with other messianic baggage that eventually accreted to it. It is an ironic slip for Jews critical of Christianity to rail against "Jesus Christ" or "Christ" since the title implicitly confers special holy status on Jesus.

12-09-2003, 05:50 PM	#79
theophilus Banned Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,945	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Apikorus Evangelical Christians often engage in the same form of self-delusion. They insist that noone can be a "true Christian" and accept other gods, that noone can be a "true Christian" and doubt in Jesus' divinity, that no "true Christian" who "has a relationship with Jesus Christ" could possibly apostasize, that no "true Christian" could be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness (or Catholic, say some), etc. What all this tells you is simply their own definition of the term "true Christian." Indeed, many groups maintain this sort of fantasy as a defense mechanism against betrayal, and it is not unique to religion. The difference is, of course (and a BIG difference), that Christianity makes no provision for believing in another God or another "heir" to Christ, ala Mohammed, while Judiasm makes a very definite and important provision for belief in a future Messiah, i.e., future to the OT economy. So, saying someone was not a real Jew because they came to accept Jesus as the prophesied Messiah is not at all the same as saying someone was not a real Christian who tried to incorporate alien elements, e.g., Buddhism, into Christianity.

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