Loomis

I agree it’s Yahweh speaking in the MT, but what about the LXX?

Can you help me identify the word translated from Yahweh in LXX Psalm 109?

I looked at the links below but I can’t find it. All I see is lord (kurios).

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=...eref=Psalm+109

http://www.tricountyi.net/~randerse/Psalm109.htm

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/tex...9.Psalms2.mlxx

Am I overlooking something?

How come?

Mark generally uses the typical LXX periphrasis Lord when quoting OT passages with the divine name in them. You said so yourself.

I disagree. It looks like an allusion to Daniel 7:9~14 to me. It has all three elements:

1. Thrones
2. Son of man
3. Coming with the clouds

Michael Heiser - a predominant Christian bible scholar - also thinks that “Jesus” was quoting Daniel 7 to the Sanhedrin.

Also, as gnosis92 has pointed out, the Gospel of Peter reads:

My power, my power, thou hast forsaken me!

And that appears to be allusion to Psalm 22:

El, El, why have you forsaken me?

If the author of Mark 14.62 wanted his Jesus character to quote Psalm 109/110 then I bet he would remain consistent and use kurios.

If the author of Mark 14.62 wanted his Jesus character to quote Daniel 7 then all bets are off - except that he might tend to do the same thing the author of the Gospel of Peter did and substitute Power. (The imagery at Daniel 7 describes the gods named El, Baal, and his divine council.)

Heiser disagrees with you.

Michael Heiser - a predominant Christian bible scholar - disagrees with your requirements for Blasphemy. Heiser thinks the Jesus character was quoting Daniel 7. Daniel 7 borrows the Ugaritic imagery of the gods El and Baal, and El’s divine council.

If the Jesus character was saying any divine name at all it was probably El. This would explain why Mark 14.62 and the Gospel of Peter both use the word Power.

Jesus was subconsciously claiming to be Baal. But they guys who invented him probably didn’t know it.

And I’m still looking for proof that the guys who invented the Jesus character ever heard of a god named Yahweh.

gnosis92

I've read Ehrman and Pagels and Crossan and I've visited Peter Kirby's website and I've watched the History channel and I've even read Doherty's website and I've never heard of these scholars LOL

Ben C Smith

That is correct. Sometime after the exile it became taboo to utter or translate the sacred name. The LXX uses words like Lord (kurios) whenever the Hebrew has Yahweh.

Because it uses the word power where we would find the name Yahweh, instead of using something more typical, such as Lord.

That is right. But here he uses power instead.

It is both. The son of man and the clouds come from Daniel 7. The sitting at the right hand comes from Psalm 110.1.

He is correct. What Jesus quotes to the Sanhedrin is both Psalm 110.1 and Daniel 7.13.

That Jesus is citing Psalm 110.1 is not really in doubt. Check any Bible with good cross references and you will find both Psalm 110.1 and Daniel 7.13 listed for this verse.

I quoted the Mishnah:

The blasphemer is not guilty until he pronounces the name.

Now, this text is later than the NT. I am certainly willing to hear arguments that in century I there were other ways to blaspheme. I can even think of some fairly decent evidence to that effect. Can you? What is your evidence for what you are saying?

El was not a forbidden word. Yahweh was.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

No, I do not think so. If power there is a circumlocution for Yahweh, then the phrase comes out as my Yahweh. I am unaware (and I have done some searching) of any such phrase in the OT, since Yahweh is a personal name and as such does not take a possessive adjective very graciously.

Rather, in the gospel of Peter power seems to be an unnecessary circumlocution for God; it is an allusion to Psalm 22.1 (21.1 LXX), which has El, not Yahweh. Compare Matthew 27.46 and Mark 15.34.

Notice that Luke 22.69, in the account of the trial, has the right hand of the power of God; he also has the right hand of God in Acts 7.56, during the trial of Stephen. I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that neither Luke nor (especially) the author of the gospel of Peter really understood what power was doing in the texts of Mark and Matthew.

Well, it certainly helps to authenticate the tradition, but I do not think it is a lock.

Ben.

Chris Weimer

What's wrong with the old idea that "power" was just an off translation of el?

Loomis

How does this answer my challenge that the guys who invented Jesus never heard of the god named Yahweh?

It does as much to support it as is does to refute it.

Right?

After all, if they were reading from the LXX they would be clueless.

Right?

Right. That’s my point.

It favors the view that Yahweh wasn’t there in the first place because if it was it would have been translated as Lord.

Instead - it was translated the same way that El was translated in the Gospel of Peter.

But even if that is true it still does not show that the author of Mark 14 ever heard of a god named Yahweh.

What I am saying is that a predominant Christian bible scholar disagrees with your requirements for blasphemy. My evidence is the words of the predominant Christian bible scholar.

Tell that to Heiser. Tell that to the high priest.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

Tell that to the author of Matthew 9:3. Tell that to the scholars over at NetBible™:

Blaspheming meant to say something that dishonored God.

Tell that to Google: :devil1:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ne%3Ablasphemy

Can you find a verse in the NT to support this?

All you have now is Power - and that appears to be a substitute for El.

Chris Weimer

First you'd need to demonstrate that anyone "invented" Jesus.

Loomis

Not if it’s a postulate.

Is this the best you can do?

Ben C Smith gets it.

If you can't contribute then why don't you sit on the sidelines? :wave:

Ben C Smith

My argument was that the term power is a conscious substitute for the divine name on the part of Mark (or one of his tradents).

What I want to know is what kind of evidence you are seeking anyway. The name Yahweh was forbidden in the NT period. So surely you are not expecting to find it in print from the NT period. What are you looking for?

No, other substitutes were used. Lord is most common, but I gave you others (from Hebrews, for example).

The gospel of Peter is quoting Psalm 22.1, which has El. The gospel of Mark is quoting Psalm 110.1, which has Yahweh.

You are technically right. But, if my argument is correct, it shows that somebody in the tradition knew the sacred name, whether Jesus himself at trial or one of the tradents before Mark.

I understand that. I am asking you for evidence for your view.

I shall have to remember that next time I am involved in a debate and need evidence. Just quote a scholar who agrees with me, and voil�*. I win.

The judgments of modern scholars, however well informed, are not evidence for ancient practice. I want to see the primary texts.

I am in a discussion with you. I am not in a discussion with Heiser.

The high priest is probably dead by now.

There! That is exactly what I was talking about. This is, in fact, the very passage I had in mind when I spoke of fairly decent evidence.

Now, the penalty for blasphemy was death. Why did the people accusing Jesus of blasphemy in Matthew 9.3 not take him to court immediately?

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Asking someone like Chris, who knows a lot more about the topic (the primary languages, for instance) than you, to sit this one out seems unnecessary.

Ben.