Diogenes the Cynic

You didn't cite either of them as saying a word about my translation. You just said they read Greek and they believed in Hell.
What does reading Greek have to do with determining Marcan authorship?
In point of fact, there is no direct Christian claim or tradition that Mark was Jewish, only that he was a secretary of Peter's (Marcus is a Roman name). That claim has long been debunked. Do you believe that Mark was a secretary of Peter's? If you do not, then by what other tradition would you assign Jewish authorship?
Let me put it another way. ALL of the evidence we have points to a Gentile author. NONE of it points to a Jewish one. What does Occam tell you to do with this information?

Diogenes the Cynic

What tradition are you talking about? Only Matthew and John have direct traditions of Jewish authorship. Mark's tradition is only that he knew Peter. Even if you believe that tradition, how does that prove Mark was Jewish?
I don't think you have a very good understanding of what Christian tradition acually is regarding these books...not that it matters since none of those traditions hold water few scholars take them seriously anymore.
So you DO believe that Mark knew Peter?

Amaleq13

IMO, that is precisely where you've gone astray. You start by accepting the tradition and then expect evidence to counter that assumed conclusion. That is not a very reliable way of determining if the assumption is likely true. I'm more familiar with this sort of thinking coming from the devoutly faithful, though. From their perspective, it can seem to make more sense since all of their conclusions tend to follow from their faith. A more reliable way for someone lacking faith to approach would be to consider the evidence first and then decide whether that appears sufficient to warrant accepting the tradition.

patchy

This is absolutely stunning--and I don't mean that as hyperbole.

If virtually all Christians now believe in an everlasting fiery hell for sinners, regardless of whether that belief springs from a series of translation errors or not...to some degree it doesn't matter what the original Greek said--or the NT writers meant. The bible that fundamentalist Christians are reading says "hell" in it, in plain English, and that's what they take it to mean. A concept reinforced every Sunday morning, because you can bet they never hear a word about "some burning Jewish garbage dump in the valley."

Still, you'd think that this undermining of hell as one of Christianity's core tenets would get more airplay. Why don't more people know about this?

This seems almost as airtight as the global flood myth as far as evidence that biblical sourcing for Christianity as practiced today is nearly meaningless--yet no one today believes in a burning garbage dump...they believe in Dante's Inferno instead.

This is incredible...

Sensei Meela

It does, and they do; Jews have been saying it for, oh, about 200 centuries! And my memory may be fuzzy, but I seem to recall a Jehova's Witness pamphlet accusing the Catholic Church of using pagan mythology to promote their verison of Hell. And there's others (again, IIRC)...

It's more a testament to the power of selective thinking, the powerful influences of various groups, etc.

Chili

. . . but true for good reason because they have first hand experience of it but can't quite get their act together to shake it. Hence, eternal torment is proper.

Eternal life exists in our soul or subconscious mind wherein is retained that part of us that we do not really understand. Intuition is the memory of our soul which is called instinct in other animals (all sentient beings have a soul).

Temporal life exists in our conscious mind, which was a near blank slate at birth, but is the place where be became resident and therefore know it well (the bible calls this outside of Eden).

Since we are outside of Eden, in this context, it can be said that we live besides ourselves where we are forced to extract our temporal life from our eternal life. To quench the pain of alienation we seek to find power wealth and beauty to enhance the appearance of this temporal mode of existence that we have come to love and cherish (there are sexual identities, booze, drugs, fast cars, and so on; in fact, we managed to make it our playground).

To become eternal we must vacate our conscious mind and take up residence in our subconscious mind and that is what the gospels are all about. Those who become eternal will have died their first death and continue to live until the second death ends their eternal life.

Those who fail to die their first death but have been awakened towards their eternal destiny will be torn between eternal life and death until they die. This will be their eternal portion of time spend seeking the fullness of salvation and that is the portion that has become known as hell on earth (but not recognized as such by those for whom the term hell was coined).

Amaleq13

As Jagella has pointed out, the notion of hell seems to be losing popularity outside the more fundamentalist circles. Thankfully, those are also the ones who have the most TV shows so I am continually entertained. It was not long ago that I watched a show where they talked about "actual evidence" that Hell was a real place deep beneath the earth! :rolling:

Jagella

My point is that they have read a Greek text of the New Testament, and they evidently saw no reason to dispense with the hallowed Christian torture chamber referred to as “hell.�

I’m not sure if the person who wrote Mark knew Peter. The “tradition� I referred to is the commonly held belief among Christians and others that the gospels were written by Jews. This belief is one of the few Christian claims I don’t necessarily disagree with.

Occam’s Razor is the principle that posits that one should accept whichever explanation requires the fewest assumptions. I see assuming that the author in question was a gentile as one more assumption than that he was Jewish. That is, I think it’s more straightforward to think he was Jewish than that he was a gentile. He wrote a book about Jews set in Judea that centered on a man that was supposed to be the Jewish messiah. I can think of no reason why a gentile would show interest in these concerns that early in the church’s development. So as far as I can tell, the simplest view is that this mysterious person was Jewish.

Jagella

Diogenes the Cynic

They also offered no argument as to why Gehenna should not be translated as "Valley of Hinnon." I doubt they even know the historical context. They've just decided to read their preconceptions into those passages without any attempt to examine them any more deeply.

In any xase, they haven't offered any kind of explanation as to why Gehenna should be read as hell.
I can help you with that one. He did not. The book is quite hostile to Peter and to the Jerusalem cult in general. It paints Peter as a trator and a coward who ran away from Jesus and (this is important) Mark does not give Peter any redemption and does not allow him to see a risen Jesus.

GMark also gets too many details historically wrong for them to have been derived from an eyewitness, it makes no claim to have derived anything from Peter and the tradition this story is based on is pure 2nd century folklore. It is not something that anyone but fundy scholars believe anymore. There is no such commonly held belief except for Matthew and John. The belief for Mark is that he knew Peter, not that he was a Jew. The Jewish part is your own extropolation.

An appeal to Christian tradition is about as weak an argument as you could possibly present, incidentally, especially when that tradition has already been decisively debunked by modern scholarship.
That makes no sense whatsoever, The language and audience makes it prima facie Gentile.
At the time of Mark's writing almost all Christians were converted Gentiles. Why would you assume he was an exception?

Sheshbazzar

After reading all of these posts, From my old notes, I would like to offer the following for your consideration.

Preamble;
---"Search the Scriptures," Jn. 5:39

---" Prove all things, and hold fast that which is good." 1 Thes. 5:21

---"To the Law and to the Testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them." Isa. 8:20

---"For had you believed Moses, you would believe Me....But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe My words? " Jn.5:46-47

---"If they hear not Moses and the Prophets.......Lu. 16:31


What do the Scriptures say concerning the 'end' of those whom are ultimately rejected?
Because any saying of the New Testament has to be analyzed and judged by its relationship to the Law and to the Testimony, this is the ONLY valid test,

1. Not, "we think.......and......."
2. Not, "we believe.......and......."
3. Not, "we had a dream, and......."
4. Not, "we took a vote, and......."
5. Not "we drew lots, and......."
6. Not, "we agreed, and......."
7. Not, "The Holy Ghost whispered it in our ears,.......and......."

I present here a few verses from the Scriptures, and from the New Testament. (These few were located using Strong's Concordance, of course different 'versions' may use different word choices, in some the word chosen is even 'stronger language' than the KJV, and some are 'watered down')

Exhibit A. "He that sacrifices to any elohim, save unto Yahweh only, he shall be UTTERLY DESTROYED" Ex.22:20
(note that for the sin in the preceding verse, the penalty was 'only' to be "put to death")

Exhibit B. "..but the way of the wicked shall PERISH" Ps.1:6

"Thou shalt DESTROY them that speak lies:" Ps.5:6

Exhibit C. "evil doers shall be CUT OFF....... Ps. 37:9

for yet a little while, and the wicked SHALL NOT BE,
yea, you shall diligently consider his place,
and it SHALL NOT BE....... Ps. 37:10

But the wicked SHALL PERISH, and the enemies of Yahweh
shall be as the fat of lambs;
THEY SHALL CONSUME; INTO SMOKE THEY SHALL
CONSUME AWAY. Ps. 37:20

For such as be blessed of Him shall inherit the earth,
and they that be cursed of Him SHALL BE CUT OFF. Ps. 37:22

For Yahweh loves judgment, and forsakes not His saints;
They are preserved forever;
But the seed of the wicked SHALL BE CUT OFF. Ps 37:28

When the wicked are CUT OFF, You shall see it. Ps. 37:34

I have seen the wicked in great power,........
Yet he PASSED AWAY, and lo, he WAS NOT;
Yes I sought him, but he COULD NOT BE FOUND. Ps. 37:36

But the transgressors SHALL BE DESTROYED together;
The END of the wicked SHALL BE CUT OFF." Ps. 37:38

Exhibit D. "As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
As wax melts before the fire, so let the wicked
PERISH at the presence of Elohim." Ps. 68:2

Exhibit E. "Yahweh preserves all them that love Him
but the wicked will He DESTROY." Ps.145:20

Exhibit F. "Behold the Day comes, that shall burn as an oven;
And all the proud, yes, all that do wickedly shall
be STUBBLE; And the Day that comes
SHALL BURN THEM UP, says Yahweh Sabboth,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

Now a few verses from The New Testament,

Exhibit G. "for it is profitable for you that one of your members
should PERISH.... Matt. 5:29
Exhibit H. "Every tree which brings not forth good fruit is HEWN DOWN,
and cast into the fire....He will BURN UP the chaff (stubble)
with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:10-12

Exhibit I. "broad is path that leads to DESTRUCTION..." Matt. 7:13

Exhibit J. "And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY
both soul and body..." Matt.10:28

Exhibit K. "...He will miserably DESTROY those wicked men," Matt. 21:41

Exhibit L. "except you repent, you shall all likewise PERISH" Lu.13:3

Exhibit M. "except you repent, you shall all likewise PERISH" Lu.13:5

Exhibit N. ".......vessels of wrath suited to DESTRUCTION..." Ro. 9:22

Exhibit O. ".......whose end is DESTRUCTION" Phil. 3:19

Exhibit P. "for when they shall say, 'Peace and Safety';
Then sudden DESTRUCTION shall come upon them" 1 Thes. 5:3

Exhibit Q. "..who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION..2 Thes 1:9
Exhibit R. "...and shall bring upon themselves swift DESTRUCTION" 2 Pe. 2:1

Exhibit S. "...unto their own DESTRUCTION 2 Pe. 3:16

Exhibit T. " There is One Lawgiver, Who is able to save,
and to DESTROY..." James 4:12

Exhibit U. (as in YOU) " If any man defile The Temple of YAH;
him shall Yah DESTROY;
For The Temple of YAH is Holy,
which Temple YOU are,
Let no man deceive himself." 1 Cor. 3:17-18