John A. Broussard

I have no problem with this view except to say that all religions use cut and paste.

For the benefit of pagan converts, Christianity was quite ready to take over existing myths, of which there were plenty.

On the other hand, a significant number of potential converts were Jews, as was the cult figure of Jesus, so little wonder that the early Christian writers--especially those of Jewish background--would also seek to fit Jesus into anything in the OT that could possibly serve.

countjulian

Which is why they included both influences in the gospels.

Roger Pearse

You're right. I would even go so far as to dismiss any statement unless the ancient evidence for it is on display, so much hokum is in circulation.

Unfortunately there is nothing in the historical record to suggest that Mithras-worshippers did anything special on 25th December, or that his birth was attached to any particular day.

Read all the literary evidence here .

There is often confusion in this area. The 25th December seems to be when the winter solstice was celebrated, and the Romans knew this as dies natalis solis invicti -- the day of the unconquered sun. This was an ancient Roman feast, which has nothing to do with Sol Invictus. The deity Sol Invictus was invented in 274 by Aurelian. The Calendar of 354 shows the feast days of this cult in the Autumn, not in December.

It's quite possible, isn't it? But we actually don't know, so I think we should practise our scepticism here and refuse to assert it.

I hope this doesn't read like disagreement. That CE article does a good job on showing us what the data is. I merely sought to highlight how everyone gets misled by the myths going around.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

robto

Thanks for your comments and the link, Roger.
I have read (somewhere, I'll post the reference if I can remember where) that there was no Roman celebration of solstices, etc. before the 3rd century AD or so. So I'm interested in your claim of an ancient Roman feast on the winter solstice. Do you have a reference for this? Thanks!

Roger Pearse

I haven't managed to finish my research on Sol Invictus, so I don't have everything at my fingertips -- one day I will write a webpage with the whole story.

I first read the only book on "Sol Invictus", G.H.Halsberghe, "The Cult of Sol Invictus", Leyden 1972, which Gordon (see link at the bottom) quite accurately describes as wretched. It's like a PhD thesis where the author gradually realised that his entire idea was wrong, but somehow had to stick with it. Pages with no references go by, leaving the intelligent reader impatiently asking whether the author expects to have assertion treated as evidence. This contains a whole list of possible literary mentions of Sol Invictus, which is useful; and claims Sol Invictus was the same as El-Gabal, the deity of Elagabalus/Heliogabalus, "Sol Invictus Elagabalus", hooted out of Rome half a century earlier (which the evidence he himself presents shows to be nonsense). I also read a French article by Halsberghe, which was a bit better.

Once you comb out the irrelevant stuff on Heliogabalus, you start to realise just how little we know about Sol Invictus.

But I am reasonably sure that I have this point about dies natalis solis invicti from S.J. Hijmans, "The sun which did not rise in the East: the cult of Sol Invictus in the light of non-literary evidence", BABESCH (Bulletin Antieke Beschaving) vol. 71 (1996) pp.115-50. There is a rather useless abstract online. This takes Halsberghe apart in a cold and precise manner (which H. deserved) and I gather is pretty much the latest word. I have copies of this, but not where I can put my hand on it.

What we need is the raw data online. One day I will get to this.

Not on this specific point, but you may find this link interesting, btw.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

jdeverse

I can't recall the exact web address, but I do remember reading something of a cult religion created by the wife of Nimrod when her husband was cut into pieces for corrupting the religion of Adam. She claimed her son, born to late to be Nimrods, to be conceived of the holy spirit. To further her influence and power in the absence of her dead king she promoted the idea of a holy trinity of the Father, Mother, and Son. Apparenty this cult religion found ground in Egypt and Greek mythology - eventually influencing the formation of the Roman church. It was an interesting read. I have forgotten the names of the mother and son