Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 07-08-2007, 02:55 PM

From WIKI: Pontifex Maximus

Quote:

The Pontifex Maximus was the high priest of the Ancient Roman College of Pontiffs. This was the most important position in the Ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians, until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. It was last held by the Christian Roman Emperor Gratian until the title passed over to the Bishop of Rome.

Incomplete list of Pontifices maximi

753 BC to 712 BC - Duties and power of office held by the Kings of Rome
712 BC - Numa Marcius
...
509 BC - Papirius
...
449 BC - Furius
431 BC - Cornelius Cossus
420 BC - Minucius
390 BC - Follius Flaccinator
...
332 BC - Cornelius Callissa
304 BC - Cornelius Scipio Barbatus, possibly Lucius Cornelius Scipio Barbatus
...
254 BC - Tiberius Coruncanius
243 BC - Lucius Caecilius Metellus (d. 221 BC), resigned or removed from office circa 237 BC.
237 BC - Lucius Cornelius Lentulus Caudinus (d. ca 213 BC)
212 BC - Publius Licinius Crassus Dives (d. 183 BC),
183 BC - Gaius Servilius Geminus (d. 180 BC), possibly Gaius Servilius C.f. Geminus
180 BC - Marcus Aemilius Lepidus (d. 152 BC)
152 BC - Vacant
150 BC - Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Corculum (d. 141 BC)
141 BC - Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Serapio (d. 132 BC Pergamum, Asia Minor)
132 BC - Publius Licinius Crassus Dives Mucianus (killed in battle 131 BC, Asia Minor)
130 BC - Publius Mucius Scaevola (d. 115 BC or 113 BC)
115 BC - Lucius Caecilius Metellus Dalmaticus,
103 BC - Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus (d. 88 BC)
89 BC - Quintus Mucius Scaevola (murdered 82 BC in the Temple of Vesta)
81 BC - Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius (d. ca 63 BC)
63 BC - Gaius Julius Caesar
44 BC - Marcus Aemilius Lepidus, triumvir (d. 13 BC),
6 March 12 BC - Augustus
12 BC to 376 - Held by the Emperors
376 to present - Held by the Popes.

Notably, Constantine was one of the last of the long line
of Pontifex Maximi, and that Damasus was the first bishop
to occupy the position.

As far as I am aware, the prenicene christian dialogue avoids
mention of this dominating cultural and indigenous high ranking
role in the Roman empire, with few exceptions.

Can we have a brief discussion on the dialogue of these
early proto-christians with respect to this prexistent
framework of religious toleration? Was it Tertullian?

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 07-08-2007, 03:51 PM

The role of Pontifex Maximus combined political and religious authority. For the period in question, the head of the Roman Empire was also the head of the Roman religion, sort of like the King or Queen of England is the head of the Anglican Church. I'm not sure what you think there is to discuss about this.

The Evil One · 07-08-2007, 05:44 PM

Is there any office currently occupied by anyone in the world which has been continuously occupied as long as the office of Pontifex Maximus?

I mean, when the office of the head of a religion is eight hundred years older than the religion itself, that's what you call tradition.

Clouseau · 07-09-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evil One

Is there any office currently occupied by anyone in the world which has been continuously occupied as long as the office of Pontifex Maximus?

I mean, when the office of the head of a religion is eight hundred years older than the religion itself, that's what you call tradition.

Or a change of name.

mountainman · 07-10-2007, 09:29 PM

Which non pagan prenicene author makes
reference to "Pontifex Maximus", and what
did the text say?

Why do you think there are no extant
epistles to the "Pontifex Maximus", the
long-standing state-level coordinator
of empire wide and beyond religious
practices?

Clouseau · 07-11-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

I mean, when the office of the head of a religion is eight hundred years older than the religion itself, that's what you call tradition.

Quote:

Or a change of name.

Quote:

Which non pagan prenicene author makes reference to "Pontifex Maximus", and what did the text say?

I mean a change in name of religion, as per the post demonstrating similarities I made concerning this.

www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=4599119#post4599119

mountainman · 07-11-2007, 04:38 PM

WIKI

Quote:

In Christian circles, when Tertullian, Montanist, furiously applied the term to Pope Callixtus I, with whom he was at odds, c'.' 220, over Callixtus's relaxation of the Church's penitential discipline, allowing repentant adulterers and fornicators back into the Church, under his Petrine authority to "bind and loosen," it was in bitter irony:

"In opposition to this [modesty], could I not have acted the dissembler? I hear that there has even been an edict sent forth, and a peremptory one too. The 'Pontifex Maximus,' that is the 'bishop of bishops,' issues an edict: 'I remit, to such as have discharged [the requirements of] repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.' O edict, on which cannot be inscribed, 'Good deed!' … Far, far from Christ's betrothed be such a proclamation!" (Tertullian, On Modesty ch. 1)

It is not clear if the word Pontifex was commonly used by early 3rd-century Christianity to denote a bishop. Tertullian's usage is unusual in that most of the technical terms of Roman paganism were avoided in the vocabulary of Christian Latin in favour of neologisms or Greek words.

Tertullian is just a Eusebian stooge getting some mileage
up in the prenice pseudo-historical pageantry the planet
has swallowed since it was force-fed to the attendees
summoned by Constantine to Nicaea.

Clouseau · 07-12-2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

WIKI

Quote:

In Christian circles, when Tertullian, Montanist, furiously applied the term to Pope Callixtus I, with whom he was at odds, c'.' 220, over Callixtus's relaxation of the Church's penitential discipline, allowing repentant adulterers and fornicators back into the Church, under his Petrine authority to "bind and loosen," it was in bitter irony:

"In opposition to this [modesty], could I not have acted the dissembler? I hear that there has even been an edict sent forth, and a peremptory one too. The 'Pontifex Maximus,' that is the 'bishop of bishops,' issues an edict: 'I remit, to such as have discharged [the requirements of] repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.' O edict, on which cannot be inscribed, 'Good deed!' … Far, far from Christ's betrothed be such a proclamation!" (Tertullian, On Modesty ch. 1)

It is not clear if the word Pontifex was commonly used by early 3rd-century Christianity to denote a bishop. Tertullian's usage is unusual in that most of the technical terms of Roman paganism were avoided in the vocabulary of Christian Latin in favour of neologisms or Greek words.

Like much in Wiki, it's a bit amateur. Tert was using pontifex as a practical equivalent, not as a semantic equivalent. Naturally, the emperor's men used the new argot rather than the old, most of the time.

mountainman · 07-13-2007, 07:01 AM

There is also another article which claims
there are "numerous mentions" by the prenicene
"christian fathers" to the title "Pontifex Maximus" :

One of the most amazing aspects about the ascendancy of the papacy is that the church of Rome promotes the pope as the "Pontifex Maximus" or, Supreme Pontiff. The title Pontifex Maximus is mentioned numerous times by the early church fathers (particularly by Tertullian), but it was not applied to a Christian bishop. The early church fathers say that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom", the evil high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. It is certainly not likely that Christ appointed Peter "Pontifex Maximus" of Rome.

Who were these others apart from Tertullian?
Does anyone know?

07-13-2007, 07:01 AM	#9
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	There is also another article which claims there are "numerous mentions" by the prenicene "christian fathers" to the title "Pontifex Maximus" : One of the most amazing aspects about the ascendancy of the papacy is that the church of Rome promotes the pope as the "Pontifex Maximus" or, Supreme Pontiff. The title Pontifex Maximus is mentioned numerous times by the early church fathers (particularly by Tertullian), but it was not applied to a Christian bishop. The early church fathers say that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom", the evil high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. It is certainly not likely that Christ appointed Peter "Pontifex Maximus" of Rome. Who were these others apart from Tertullian? Does anyone know?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-08-2007, 03:51 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The role of Pontifex Maximus combined political and religious authority. For the period in question, the head of the Roman Empire was also the head of the Roman religion, sort of like the King or Queen of England is the head of the Anglican Church. I'm not sure what you think there is to discuss about this.

07-08-2007, 05:44 PM	#3
The Evil One Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: England Posts: 2,561	Is there any office currently occupied by anyone in the world which has been continuously occupied as long as the office of Pontifex Maximus? I mean, when the office of the head of a religion is eight hundred years older than the religion itself, that's what you call tradition.

07-10-2007, 09:29 PM	#5
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Which non pagan prenicene author makes reference to "Pontifex Maximus", and what did the text say? Why do you think there are no extant epistles to the "Pontifex Maximus", the long-standing state-level coordinator of empire wide and beyond religious practices?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.