Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RED DAVE · 06-25-2007, 10:58 PM

Okay, getting back to the OP, we now have an answer from afdave.

I have been asking the following:

Quote:

1) What is your date for the Flood (i.e. the one that you accept for purposes of argument)?

2) If it's approximate (and there's no reason why it shouldn't be), what are the outside limits?

To which afdave has answered the following:

Quote:

My tentative date for the GP is 2170 BC following Smyth. (Subject to examination of Proctor and Herschel's works) I also tentatively accept Smyth's Flood and Dispersion dates of 2743 BC, and 2528 BC, respectively. The discussion about genetically superior ancestors relates to this because my theory is that the early post-Diluvians were much more vigorous, healthy and longer-lived than later peoples. This and other factors supports the idea that they multiplied rapidly following the Flood providing adequate population for building the GP ~600 years later.

Now, all this nonsense about Piazzi Smith and Crow notwithstanding, we have a date for the Flood of 2743 BC. Now, how does that stack up with the chronology of Egyptian society?

I know that afdave doesn’t like wikipedia. I wouldn't either, if it kept contradicting me. But, in any event, here, slightly edited (to omit the earlier work of Breasted), is the chronology based on the work of Ian Shaw of the University of Liverpool.

Quote:

1st & 2nd dynasties - c.3000 – 2686

3rd dynasty - 2686 – 2613

4th dynasty - 2613 – 2494

5th dynasty - 2494 – 2345

6th dynasty - 2345 – 2181

7th & 8th dynasties - 2181 – 2160

9th & 10th dynasties - 2160 – 2025

11th dynasty - 2125 – 1985

12th dynasty - 1985 – 1773

13th to 17th dynasties - 1773 – 1550

18th dynasty - 1550 – 1295

19th dynasty - 1295 – 1186

20th dynasty - 1186 – 1069

21st dynasty - 1069 – 945

22nd dynasty - 945 – 715

23rd dynasty - 818 – 715

24th dynasty - 727 – 715

25th dynasty - 747 – 656

26th dynasty - 664 – 525

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology

Now afdave’s date for the flood would place it during the 1st and 2nd dynasties. This would mean that during this period, the entire population of Egypt, and the world, except for Noah’s 8, was wiped out, including all the animals, plant life, etc.

AND NO ONE NOTICED THIS.

Let’s take a look at the second dynasty

Quote:

Dynasty of Ancient Egypt ruling 2890-2686, consisting of 7 kings, although there are deviations to this, involving a suggested 5 to 9 kings.

And further down, we have:

Quote:

Nynetjer
Derived from Manetho, he ruled 2813-2766 BCE, 47 years.

Traces of Nynetjer is found with mud sealings at Saqqara. It is suggested that a underground gallery here was his tomb.
Weneg
Derived from Manetho, he ruled 2766-2758 BCE, 8 years.

Nothing is known from his rule, there is doubt even about his existence, and he is often omitted from the king list of the 2nd Dynasty.
Sened
Derived from Manetho, he ruled 2758-2738 BCE, 20 years.

As with Weneg, nothing is known from his rule, there is doubt even about his existence, and he is often omitted from the king list of the 2nd Dynasty.
Peribsen
Other spelling: Seth-Peribsen

Derived from Manetho, he ruled 2738-2716 BCE, 22 years.

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/egypt_dyn02.htm

So, we have a record of pharoahs, somewhat fragmentary, but one thing is clear: Egyptian civilization continued through this period.

No more of this bullshit about the world being destroyed, please.

RED DAVE

Wolfhound · 06-26-2007, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mung bean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike PSS

I NEVER subscribed to that Roller Ruler nonsense. I think in those pages I quoted some web page that showed the Egyptians used lard saturated twine (to prevent water intrusion)...

From memory it said beeswax. Would've been less messy than lard too.

Tho' not as tasty...

Mike PSS · 06-26-2007, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Now, all this nonsense about Piazzi Smith and Crow notwithstanding, we have a date for the Flood of 2743 BC. Now, how does that stack up with the chronology of Egyptian society?

I know that afdave doesn’t like wikipedia. I wouldn't either, if it kept contradicting me. But, in any event, here, slightly edited (to omit the earlier work of Breasted), is the chronology based on the work of Ian Shaw of the University of Liverpool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology

Now afdave’s date for the flood would place it during the 1st and 2nd dynasties. This would mean that during this period, the entire population of Egypt, and the world, except for Noah’s 8, was wiped out, including all the animals, plant life, etc.

AND NO ONE NOTICED THIS.

Let’s take a look at the second dynasty

And further down, we have:

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/egypt_dyn02.htm

So, we have a record of pharoahs, somewhat fragmentary, but one thing is clear: Egyptian civilization continued through this period.

No more of this bullshit about the world being destroyed, please.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE,
AFDave has an "out" for all this dating nonsense. It's David Rohl's work that tries to show how there were overlapping chronologies in the 11th? or 12th? dynasty which, if true, would push forward the dyanstic dates of Egypt by 400+ years.

In AFDaveworld this is feasable. Nevermind that AFDave has yet to address the pre-dynastic archeologic finds in Egypt. All AFDave needs to see is that Rohl's dating seems to squeeze that square peg of creationism a little further into the round hole of reality.

Mike PSS · 06-26-2007, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mung bean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike PSS

I NEVER subscribed to that Roller Ruler nonsense. I think in those pages I quoted some web page that showed the Egyptians used lard saturated twine (to prevent water intrusion)...

From memory it said beeswax. Would've been less messy than lard too.

Your memory is correct sir.

The lard ropes would get stinky.
And attract flies.

And if someone sat on them then a dreaded affliction would occur.
"What would that dreaded affliction be?" you ask.

They would become a LARD-ASS.

Ba-dum-bum.

Hey, where'd everyone go?

Dave Hawkins · 06-26-2007, 09:05 AM

RED DAVE ...

Quote:

So, we have a record of pharoahs, somewhat fragmentary, but one thing is clear: Egyptian civilization continued through this period.

No more of this bullshit about the world being destroyed, please.

Sorry, but you will hear a lot about it from me. It would be highly irresponsible of me to deny the evidence provided by "billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth." Rock layers 2 miles or so thick, I might add.

RED DAVE ... let me ask you something. You seem to accept the conventional Egyptian Chronology uncritically. What do you do with evidence that Rohl has uncovered?

For example ...

Quote:

Highlights from Rohl's A Test of Time (Rohl’s page numbers in parentheses) …
* Champollion identified Shishak with Shoshenk I based on an incorrect reading of Name Ring 29 on Shoshenk I’s campaign city list (p. 122)
* Although this was pointed out as early as 1888 by Max-Muller, the identification of Shoshenk I with Shishak had not been challenged by Egyptologists until Rohl. (p. 122)
* Rohl points out several serious problems with dendrochronological ‘calibration’ of Carbon 14 dating which lends support to the several hundred year adjustment he proposes (App. C)
* In Rohl’s corrected New Chronology, we find much evidence for Israel’s activities (assumed to be missing by conventionalists), including …
* A Papyrus dated to the generation just prior to the birth of Moses listing slaves with Hebrew names–Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (one of the names of a Hebrew midwife listed in Exodus 1:15-21) (p. 276)
* Manetho wrote that that in the reign of Dudimose (the Pharoah of the Exodus under the New Chronology), ‘a blast of God smote us’ (i.e. the Egyptians) (p. 283)
* The archaeology of Avaris (northern city in the land of Goshen) shows that, at approximately at this time, there was a terrible catastrophe–shallow burial pits all over Avaris into which victims had been hurriedly cast. (p. 279)
* Garstang’s and Kenyon’s work on Jericho make sense in the light of the New Chronology. (p. 299)
* The palace and cult statue of Joseph the Vizier of Egypt (p. 327)

*****************************************

Also, I have see no rebuttal of my post here ...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...45#post4559245

which shows that Petrie's own report confirms Davidson's observations which in turn vindicate Smyth.

*****************************************

And I am awaiting Mike's 'overwhelmingly convincing' alternative explanation for PI being incorporated into the GP. I am glad to see, Mike, that you didn't fall for the 'Roller Ruler' theory.

Withered · 06-26-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Withered

If there were a world wide flood, and everyone died. Eight people had to rebuild the entire civilization of Egypt, China, and every other culture on the planet that somehow managed to carry on after the alleged flood date.

Eight people, a handful of newborns that require constant attention, and the remaining individuals are so busy gathering food, replanting, herding animals for immediate needs, and just dealing with every little thing that would come up.

The ark's passengers, and that first generation would not have the time to do anything but survive.

Add to that the list of things they would have to have accomplished in order to maintain illusion that there had been no flood, and that every culture in the world had been destroyed, and you not only strain credulity, but out right snap it in half and toss it's poor, unbelievable corpse over your shoulder like so much rubbish.

While merely striving to survive, eight people, a handful of newborns, and a crap load of wild animals somehow have to travel the entire world and:

*carefully burying the dead so as to leave no archeological trace of the near extinction of the human race

*using heiroglyphics to maintain a flawless record of what could have happened if all those egyptians had lived,

(which seems oddly dishonest of noah and the others, writing all that down, under the pretense of being innumerable egyptian clerks and priests, deliberately creating a record that would make no mention of the massive flood they had just survived, or the glory of the god that had spared them. Damned liars noah and his family.)

*And of course, repairing all of the buildings damaged by the weight of water deep enough to hide the moutains of the world, again leaving no archeological evidence of world wide structural collpases.

*replanting all of the farmland ruined by the flood.

*and laboring to clear an entire geological layer from the earth so as to leave no trace of the flood.

No amount of genetics can account for that afdave.

No handful of people could have pulled that off, and even if you claim that they had, there is not one shred of evidence to support such claims...
So why the genetics/measurement smokescreen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Sorry, but you will hear a lot about it from me. It would be highly irresponsible of me to deny the evidence provided by "billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth." Rock layers 2 miles or so thick, I might add.

please point me towards a source for this...

and note that you have not answered the simple, straight forward questions i asked above. Eight people rebuilt civilization according to your version of history. How did they manage to do that while still surviving the post flood environment?

How did they have time to survive, rebuild every civilization simultaneously, and breed successfully?

Simple questions that have nothing to do with measurements, stars, astrology, or even genetics.

So far, as an interested but uninformed observer with simple questions, i am wholly unconvinced that your side of the debate has any real fact or value to it.

What can you say to convince me to ignore all of those experts in archeology, history, and egyptology, and accept you version of history?

Dave Hawkins · 06-26-2007, 10:26 AM

Withered ... Before I go to the trouble of answering all those questions, have you done anyreading of creationist materials at all? Could you please name the publications/articles you have read? All your questions have been answered by creationists and much of it is all available online for free at www.answersingenesis.org and other sites that I could point you to.

Withered · 06-26-2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Withered ... Before I go to the trouble of answering all those questions, have you done anyreading of creationist materials at all? Could you please name the publications/articles you have read? All your questions have been answered by creationists and much of it is all available online for free at www.answersingenesis.org and other sites that I could point you to.

afDave,

You mistake my lack of familiarity with the pyramids with lack of familiarity with apologetics. Admittedly, this is one area of apologetics that i am not as well versed in, but since i have a fully functioning bullshit detector, i am confident i will be okay.

As regards AIG:
yesi have read some of the material they have there. I was hoping that given the tenacity with which you cling to your points that you were privy to some new, more reasonable data. I see now that i was wrong.

I find the answers you and AIG and other sites provide less than satisfying. And do you know why?

I, not being formally trained in egyptology, or archeology, or genetics, or any other discipline as regards the bible, have figured out some very fundamental realities about those topics that you, a highly indoctrinated student of the bible, do not seem to understand. Examples: I have figured out that eight people can not rebuild all of a world's civilizations at once after a world wide flood wipes them from the face of the earth. Also, I have observed that Cultures could not be as diverse, as deep, and as independant of each other in the 2000 some odd years since you allege the flood occured. I have figured out similar fundamental realities in the real world that highly indoctrinated biblical students have not figured out.

Why have I figured out these basic things that highly trained specialists have missed? Because I'm smarter than them? No. Not at all. It's because my thinking is unencumbered with a pre-commitment to the truth of the bible and a christian god.

So in regard your taking the time to share information with me, i would say we are on exactly the same level. I offer you the same credentials that you have offered the dozens of experts and lay scholars that have engaged you here and at other boards.

My questions are not for others to answer, i am asking you, afDave, what you think the answers are. Sure it would be easy to simply wave me away and continue to debate the pyramids dimensions, the genetic make up of people from thousands of years ago, etc.

But it would not provide answers, nor would it make your stance any more credible. And it cetainly would do nothing for the cause of your faith to be so easily dismissed on so critical and basic a level.

Looking forward to your answers.

Withered.

Mike PSS · 06-26-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

*****************************************

Also, I have see no rebuttal of my post here ...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...45#post4559245

which shows that Petrie's own report confirms Davidson's observations which in turn vindicate Smyth.

*****************************************

And I am awaiting Mike's 'overwhelmingly convincing' alternative explanation for PI being incorporated into the GP. I am glad to see, Mike, that you didn't fall for the 'Roller Ruler' theory.

Dave,
Is your willingness to actually respond to my explanation any more than your willingness to respond to the same explanation I posted at RD.net a month ago?

I think I'll just refer you back to my previous unanswered questions about the pi-issue at RD.net.

It's the same questions you evaded and ignored already.

So how about the accuracy of Smyth's measurements. Another poster a page back brought up the Wiki reference that showed a discrepency in measurement of the GP of 15mm or more. And you have me believe that Smyth can measure a Pyramid Inch to the fourth decimal precision.

Now THAT is a glaring inconsistency if I ever saw one.
Classical measurments: plus/minus 0.015m
Smyth measurements: plus/minus 0.00005m

Was Smyth using lasers?

Steviepinhead · 06-26-2007, 12:20 PM

Still no answer to my Philitis-the-shepherd query to dave. Or was Philitis secretly the secretly-princely secretly-Israelite-y secretly-architectural-genius-y secretly-cosmic-measurements-knowledgeable-y designer of the GP? Tune in tomorrow, I guess... Or the next day. Or the day after that...

And if he was, but all this stuff about him was such a well-kept secret, for crying out lound, how the heck do we know claim to know anything about him beyond his shepard-ness, which is at least attested by the Egyptian priests who were Herodotus's "sources"?

Interested minds, wanting to know...

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-26-2007, 10:26 AM	#387
Dave Hawkins Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,375	Withered ... Before I go to the trouble of answering all those questions, have you done anyreading of creationist materials at all? Could you please name the publications/articles you have read? All your questions have been answered by creationists and much of it is all available online for free at www.answersingenesis.org and other sites that I could point you to.

06-26-2007, 12:20 PM	#390
Steviepinhead Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,642	Still no answer to my Philitis-the-shepherd query to dave. Or was Philitis secretly the secretly-princely secretly-Israelite-y secretly-architectural-genius-y secretly-cosmic-measurements-knowledgeable-y designer of the GP? Tune in tomorrow, I guess... Or the next day. Or the day after that... And if he was, but all this stuff about him was such a well-kept secret, for crying out lound, how the heck do we know claim to know anything about him beyond his shepard-ness, which is at least attested by the Egyptian priests who were Herodotus's "sources"? Interested minds, wanting to know...

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.