Steven Carr

And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.'" Acts 17:2-3

Why did Paul argue from the Scriptures about what had happened, to prove that Jesus was the Christ, when he should have been referring to eyewitness accounts of what Jesus did , if he wanted to prove that Jesus was the Christ?

And where exactly did Paul get , from the Scriptures, that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead?

7thangel

It is evident that the Jew's are much aware of Christ, and of the Christians. When Paul talked to the Jews in Rome, the Jews even said, "...as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against." So I believe there is not much need to argue of Christ's existence. Perhaps, some of the Jews are eyewitnesses themselves of what really happened to Christ.

Now, the Scriptures prophesied about Christ. Even Christ said, "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." The reason Paul argued about the Scripture is because some of the fulfillment of the prophecies were not meant to be literal. For example, Christ, shedding his blood, and killed for the sins of the people corresponds to the lamb killed in the passover for all the sins of all the people.

The Law is actually a prophecy, for it is a pattern of the heveanly tabernacle, which is the Church, the spiritual body of the saints. Thus, the writer of Hebrew is conforming Christ having have to offer in conformity to the Law of Moses (Hebrews 8:1-5); for the Law of Moses is a pattern of the heavenly tabernacle of which Christ is also the High Priest.

Regarding suffering: Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Regarding rising from the dead: Acts 2:25-31 25. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Steven Carr

And the word 'Messiah' does not occur in Isaiah 52-54.

And the word 'Messiah' does not appear in Psalm 16 either. And the word 'schacath' in Psalm 16 means 'pit', not 'corruption.

By 'not literal', you mean that these 'prophecies' in Isaiah and Psalms never mention the Messiah

Perhaps in their disputes with Jews, and their eagerness to show that Jesus's life fulfilled prophecies, some Christians spun the events of Jesus's life to make them more closely match the prophecies.

redzrx

I have also read(mainly jewish sites) that the translation in Isaiah has been skewed. To the jews the Suffering Servant is Israel and christians changed the "they" to "he" to fit their take on it.

Mario

7thangel

The law does not also indicate that the lamb slained in the passover that will take away the sins of the people is not clearly referred to the Messiah itself. So do not expect to get a very clear indication of Christ fulfilling the prophesies. For one reason the mysteries are not meant to be understood by the lost.

Not only that it does not mention the Messiah, the statement can itself be referring to David. But Paul argues that the statement refer to Christ; for David died and remained in hell (grave). Thus, Paul is saying that the fulfillment is actually through Christ.

More than that, I guess. I mean that the prophecies are meant to be understood according to the plan of God. The plan of God is the Spirit of the Scripture.

They are not twisting prophesies, rather, as I am telling you, not all the prophesies are not meant to be literal.

One of the things the the apostles and disciples believe/preach is that the Temple built by Moses together with its ordinances are patterned after the Heavenly Temple shown to Moses in the mount. And they claim that this heavenly temple is the body of the saints, in which Christ is the cornerstone and at the same time the High Priest. By that itself, it will be hard convince how such laws and ordinances speak of the Church, and even harder how to relate Christ in the fulfillment of such laws and ordinances unto Him. To be convinced of them is purely God's own work unto whom He choses to have the revelation.

7thangel

Some of the words of the verse would certainly not refer to Israel, nor Jacob if you mean of Jacob as the Israel. The words "and with his stripes we are healed" does not in anyways can refer to Israel, nor Jacob. To the apostles and disciples, this statement refer to Christ's death to redeem us of our sins. Because they (apostles and disciples) understood that these words refer to Christ as the Lamb to be slain as an offering for the sins of all the people according to the law of Moses. And as I was saying to Steve, the Temple built by Moses, togeher with its ordinances (law) is the pattern of the heavenly temple referrring to the body of the Saints, the Church. Christ, being the High Priest and the lamb, fulfilled His part according to the pattern in the Law of Moses.

redzrx

Lets look at chapters before 53. 41:8-9,44:1-2,44:21,45:4,48:20,49:3 says who the servant and chosen one is.. Jacob /Israel ..

and below is after 53

Isaiah 54:17

No weapon that is formed against you will prosper, and every tongue that accuses you in judgment will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Hashem, and their vindication is from me, declares Hashem.



Isaiah 63:17

Why Hashem, do You let us stray from Your paths, letting our heart become hardened from fearing You? Return to us for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of your heritage.



Isaiah 65:8-9

Thus says Hashem, “As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says, “Do not destroy it for there is benefit in it.� So will I act on behalf of My servants in order not to destroy all of them. And I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, and an heir of My mountains from Judah, even My chosen ones shall inherit it, and My Servants shall dwell there.



Isaiah 66:14

You will see and your heart will exult, and your bones will flourish like grass; the hand of Hashem will be known to His servants, and He will show anger to his enemies.
--------------------------------------------------

Why would Isaiah decide to change who the Servant is only in 53 to someone else? He has said who it is.. before and after that chapter.. it is meant to be read as whole(chapters came later).

Also you say that only those who believe will understand.. but you were told to read this chapter the christian way.. you were pointed to it.You were told what it meant. You believed in jesus before you even understood the bible..


Mario

rlogan

You have seen some (but by no means all) of the "suffering" business. Rising from the dead is a theme we see in the HB too (not just for Jesus, but for the "flock" too) -

KJV From hosea 6:

1: Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2: After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3: Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.


psalms 16:10
10: For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

psalms 49:15
15: But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.


There are more scriptures to sift through on this issue too, but you just name your "Jesus" topic and I'll find the HB prophesy behind it.


These gospel perps are just dumpster divin' for Jesus in the HB. A piece here, a piece there.

So you get all of these HB prophesy pieces and try to weave a story together that includes as many as you can.

That includes twisting things around in the Christian "close enough for Jesus" fashion.

7thangel

You can surely accuse the apostles and disciples of changing meanings. Even the statement of David is a clear indication of reversing the statement to pertain to Christ, instead of to David. Sure, there are many doctrines that the apostles have that would make you think they twisted the prophesies and the law. And to understand them really is a matter of God revealing it unto us, rather than because we hear of it. The Scriptures were designed that the reader will not be saved by adhering to it literally, but through God giving revelation of it's meaning.

Whether the Devil, or the Saints, told me how the Scripture is read, the fact still remains that it is only God who gives revelation of the word of the Scripture.

redzrx

In regards to your last statement.

I have gone to bible studies with a christian friend of mine and that is the way it is taught. They show you the passages and how you are suppose to understand them in relation to jesus. There is no divine intervention on the reader(or student). (you wanted to believe going in)

Remember Isa was written 700 years before christ. The jews were under either egyptian, assyrian or babalonian and later roman rule their whole existence, they were wanting their own land with a rightous king for centuries. They wanted that king to lead them in battle(with yahweh) against their oppressors.The servant story is a journey of a oppressed,beaten people who thru their faith in god and a rightous king can overcome thier oppressors and show the rest of the world(gentile) that they are chosen people and that yahweh is the true god. Sort of a nah nah .. told you so attitude.

Mario