karlydee

In Genesis the bible starts out, "in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth"

The hebrew word used for "heavens" is the same word used for "air", and is different than the word used for "firmament".

So very easily one can reread the first verse in Genesis as " In the beginning God created the air and the land "

God is credited with creating the firmament that separates the waters above from the waters below, but I can't find an explicit "and God created water".

Anat

Genesis 1:2 mentions the spirit of God sweeping over the water. Either void, darkness and water mentioned in this verse existed prior to creation or creation had started before 'let there be light' was uttered. ( The question as to the origins of these entities is included in a list of 'forbidden questions' in the Talmud.)

Clivedurdle

So water existed before (El?) started creating! Water is made from hydrogen and oxygen - hydrogen a very early product of the evolution of the universe, oxygen later needing super novae and similar!

YEC's have not read Genesis very well have they!

The concept of forbidden questions is very interesting - sounds similar to the christian belief in mysteries that pass all understanding....

IN EC we have been discussing xians believing evolution. One of the ideas is the gap idea in Genesis 1 - that there was a creation before the creation story. This has been attacked by the yec's but really this problem of water can be solved by xians by using a gap idea to bring together science and the Bible

Sensei Meela

Well, we do have Colossians 1:16 saying...

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

Not quite sure that counts.

Clivedurdle

Why do we not treat things like that statement in Colossians as equivalent to apologists trying to tidy up the loose threads?

There is a timeline here, as thinking becomes more sophisticated. The Bible cannot be treated as a whole with these so called interrelationships backing each other up. It may all have been edited later on to attempt to make it consistent!

Chris Weimer

Read Genesis a little more carefully, "And the Earth became without form"

karlydee

I have read it quite carefully, I see you are referring to Genesis 1:2.

KJV "And the earth was without form and void"

If we search the Hebrew we find

erets - Earth, Soil, Land - no reference to water at all
tohuw - KJV= without form , also wasteland, empty - no reference to water
bohuw - KJV= void , also empty - no reference to water

it may make much more sense to read the first section of Genesis 1:2 as

"And the Earth was an empty wasteland"

or alternately as a story teller might

"And the Earth was empty, very empty"

It is also of interest to evaluate the second section of Genesis 1:2

KJV"and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

translated from the Hebrew one could read this as

" and the spirit of god hovered above the waters but the depths of the waters were obscured from his sight" ( and also the ball of dirt called earth that he created in the middle of the deep abyss of water)

So, what did he/they do next?

Well if you couldn't see anything you would turn on the lights, right?

KJV "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

can also translate the Hebrew to read,

" and god desired to see so he began to shine"

next

KJV "And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

First reference to god seeing anything NOTE: intimates that god could not see prior to light. We will come back to that later.


KJV"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.

And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so."

What we have here is god separating the waters, and then moving them out of the way of his creation (earth) so that -->

KJV "And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good."

He could finally see his handiwork, and assess whether it was good or not.

Sheshbazzar

While a "story teller" is free to interpret and present the creation story in any form that pleases, a translator has to be more careful not to impose any personal interpretations upon the text, nor to expand it any further than is required to make it intelligible in the language it is being translated into.
These two above examples are not translations strictly speaking, but rather are interpretations.
I myself would enjoy being able to simply re-write and re-word these verses to conform to my own belief system and personal persuasions, however both those calling themselves, 'believers' and those calling themselves 'unbelievers' would rightly strenuously object to my taking so much liberty with the original text. Sheshbazzar

karlydee

I translated using the Strongs concordance at bluletter.org

"and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

darkness - hebrew word --> choshek also obscurity, root chashak- hidden/conceal

deep - hebrew word --> t@howm - deep waters, abyss
"and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep"
Translated- "and obscured and hidden was the deep watery abyss"


moved - hebrew word --> rachaph -- to hover
upon - hebrew word --> al root meaning -- above
"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters"
Translated -"and the spirit of god hovered above the waters"

If you change the order of the sections of verse it makes sense
"and the spirit of god hovered above the waters, and obscured and hidden was the deep watery abyss"


"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

Let there be - hebrew word --> havah - come to pass ; root avah -desire
light - hebrew word --> owr root meaning -to be or become light, shine; to shine (of the sun)

and there was light -hebrew word --> owr root meaning- to give light, shine

" And God said [I] desire to shine, and light was given "

Clivedurdle

Shiver down back stuff! It is almost as if the OT is describing the Tao and then personalising it into either the sun is God or a separate creator - but that could be our spin.

It sounds as if the creation described was dark and void and then light exploded from it.

We are trying to get back into the mind of a long dead story teller. This God does not have to be apart from the universe, but could be part of it, who does something to enable him to see. Is Genesis describing the human experience of being conscious, of us learning to think, and putting light into the world?