Steven Carr

Mark 14
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

Jesus prayed that if it all possible the hour might pass from him.

Jesus prayed to his father to take the cup from him.

Was the prayer of Jesus 'heard' by God, which is jargon for granted by God?

Obviously not, because the guy got killed.

Or was it?

Hebrews 5
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

This passage in Hebrews is regularly cited as a proof that the Gospel story is historical, yet it flatly contradicts the Gospel story.

Jesus prayer to be spared death was not 'heard' in the Gospels.

Did the author of Hebrews not know the Gospel story about Jesus?

bacht

Apparently not, since he sets the action around the Day of Atonement rather than Passover as in the gospels. The spring date is a natural fit for the resurrection.

There is a theory that Hebrews was aimed at people like the Essenes, providing a replacement theology after the fall of the temple. Like the other epistles, there's no earthly teaching or miracle-working career mentioned. Seems to be in line with the tricking-the-archons theme.

Juststeve

Steven:

The short answer is no, Jesus' prayers were not heard because there is no Gods to hear prayers.

Another thing to look at is the development that takes place from Mark through John on this very issue. To my mind Marks portrayal on this issue rings true. Jesus sees things are going to go badly for him. He pleads with God to get him out of it and finally feels that God has forsaken him as the end approached. Christians spin it differently but they sort of have to given where they’re coming from.

John on the other hand portrays A Jesus calm and in control of his fate. He is a full partner in the plan with God and goes to his fate as one fully in control. No begging for mercy from John’s Jesus. This to me represent a different idea of who Jesus was between the author of Mark and those of John. Perhaps even a development over time but its hard to say with so few data points.

Steve

dizzy

I put in a quick search for "rings true" along with some phrases like "historical criteria", "jesus" and "gospels". Guess what I found?

Stop the presses, we've discovered the criterion of Because-I-Said-So. When do you get published, Steve? The world needs to know about this.

bacht

Yes, John seems to comment on or contradict some of the synoptic items, notably the date of the crucifixion.

Juststeve

dizzy:

I won't be offended if you ignore my posts as I intend to ignore yours. What can I possibly learn from someone who needs a goggle search to understand a common phrase like "rings true"?

Steve

Steven Carr

Which makes it a dependent source.

Why did the Gospel writers seem to only have one source for their basic Jesus story - a source they either copied from or deliberately changed.

It is almost as though the basic Jesus story can be traced back to its source 'Mark', and no further back.

dizzy

I could teach you how to spell Google, for a start. Double-O not double-G. Now we can move on to the historical method. "Rings true" is no good. It's common, but just no good. History is an evidence-based discipline. "Rings true" is just waxing lyrical, and is really a way of saying you haven't read anything much. I guess it's fun tell people what you think, instead of what you know. That might explain why "rings true" is so common. But it's still no good. You have a long road ahead of you. Take your blinkers off.

Toto

Don't avoid the real issue. The phrase "rings true" seems to be a favorite one for Christian apologists who try to argue that the gospels are true because they sound true. It isn't especially useful for historians trying to separate history from historical fiction.

In fact, one of the top sites in a google search is Rings True- Historical Copy Editing for Authors and Publishers - a service to authors who want to include historically accurate details in their fiction.

aa5874

Those words of yours "rings true" ring a bell. I have heard fundamentalists say that the NT "rings true".

Mr 14:36 - Please say, if you know, what was the TRUE name of the father of Jesus? And what cup did Jesus know of?

It "rings true" to you.