Toto

This is not true, except for historians who dispute the accuracy of all ancient documents.

There is no support for this idea. The gospels were not eyewitness testimony, and were not written before the destruction of the Temple.

No one came forward because the gospels were not generally circulated before the middle of the second century.

Have you actually read the gospels? How many times do they say that Jesus did something in order that the scriptures might be fulfilled?

James Brown

May I recommend you re-read post #7 in this thread? Jesus failed to fulfill all the prophecies regarding the Jewish Messiah, and there are far fewer prophecies regarding said Messiah than Christian apologists claim.

WVIncagold

please provide the prophecy that states he was to be born a virgin.

Please provide the records that any census actually took place requiring travel to Bethlehem other than it being made up to help support the older prophecy.

How? Joseph was the line not Mary. see your point number one.

so Christ lived to be 70? Temple mount has a Muslim Mosque there. not sure what your getting at.

which version he threw the money or priest payed the money?

Probably originating with the Assyrians and Babylonians, it was used systematically by the Persians in the 6th century BC. Alexander the Great brought it from there to the eastern Mediterranean countries in the 4th century BC, and the Phoenicians introduced it to Rome in the 3rd century BC. It was virtually never used in pre-Hellenic Greece [3]. Crucifixion, in one form or another, was also used by Achaemenid Persia, the Greeks, Carthaginians, Macedonians and from very early times Rome. There is evidence that captured pirates were crucified in the port of Athens around the 7th century BC. you can find this here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

its a fact huh? is it supported by anything but the bible?

this is a common practice in the ancient world. It take no leap of faith to say criminals steal and then devide the booty.

how about you actually post the prophesies your talking about so we can actually know which ones you mean since there are many different conflicting prophesies in the many different bibles.


and on the the merrygoround we go into circular logic.
so because the bible says its so then we know it happened right?

noteworthy you say how about posting their names?


Really so Paul, and John and Mark and Luke were written right then when it was happening? so how come the are not the same? How about you bring forth some proof that these are direct eyewitness testimony written on the day it was given or is this just another bald assertion?

again how about some proof that this actually happened. Course if you did come forth Constantine just butchered your ass and you were branded a heretic.


except for the fact the church killed you if you didn't believe. spoken like a one who knows nothing of history or culture and relates everything to a modern day freedom of speech.

this is what Jesus fulfilled:
He must be Jewish (accident of birth)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah again accident of birth
He must be a descendant of David and Solomon again accident of birth

These three anyone born under the house of Judaism fulfill as well simply by being born. No effort what so ever on the child's part. All that had to happen was mom and pop got busy.

More Importantly below the things within Jesus's control none were fulfilled.

He must gather the Jews and return them to Israel
He must rebuild the temple in Jerusalem
He will rule at a time of world peace
He will rule at a time when the Jews obey God's commandments
He will rule at a time when *all* people acknowledge and serve one

Amaleq13

What you seem to be ignoring is that the alleged fulfillments were written long after he was dead and, for many, with the alleged prophecies clearly in mind when they wrote. How do you tell the difference between a genuinely fulfilled prophecy and a story written so that it appears as thought a prophecy was fulfilled?

That isn't a "fact" but a claim and there is no such prophecy. This is a Christian misreading of Hebrew Scripture. The woman in the passage is already pregnant and the child is used as a time-marker for the actual prophecy.

There is no such prophecy. The passage refers to a tribe not a town.

Unless Joseph was his biological father, there was no such relationship. And Mary can't rescue you since the maternal line was not relevant to the claim.

I don't understand what you are claiming here.

This looks to be an example of what I mentioned at the start.

No such prophecy. This is another Christian misreading of Hebrew Scripture.

Two more examples of what I mentioned at the start.

They are good representatives.

This is simply false. You will find very few historians who will agree with the above and I would guess that the few you might find will argue from their faith in Christianity rather than actual evidence.

There certainly [b]is[/i] accurate history contained in the stories but none of it is really directly relevant to any of the crucial questions about Jesus.

That is a very difficult claim to defend and certainly not one you can simply make without defending (in a thread of its own).

Possibly true but currently impossible to establish.

You can make this appeal for the sayings of Jesus but not really for the narrative content and it isn't much of an argument even for the sayings.

Other than a single reference in Matthew (ie stolen body accusation), there really is no evidence that Jews opposed to Christianity were aware of, let alone familiar with, all of the claims made in the Gospel stories.

Your Gospels say otherwise. Jesus is clearly and explicitly depicted intentionally setting up his entrace to Jerusalem so as to fulfill prophecy.

Welcome to IIDB.

ETA: My apologies for piling on. I should have read the rest of the thread before posting so as to avoid duplication of replies.

Johnny Skeptic

Arnoldo says that I do not understand Bible theology. I submit that arnoldo does not understand Bible theology. I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 30 years, and I understand Bible theology very well. Regarding assessing the character of any being, his motives are everything. One the main reasons, if not the main reason why people refuse to become Christians, or give up Christianity, is because they do not believe that a loving, rational God would act like the God of the Bible sometimes acts. What are God's motives? Matthew1:21 says "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Those Scriptures indicate that God's top priority is to try to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and not to hell. A lot of evidence indicates that that is not God's top priority, or even one of his top priorities.

One of the most absurd claims that fundamentalist Christians make is that God wants people to believe that he can predict the future. If a God exists, and wanted people to believe that he can predict the future, all that he would need to do would be to telepathically tell everyone in the world when and where some natural disasters would occur.

At the GRD Forum, arnoldo said that God likes faith. If God likes faith, then why does he provide supposedly fulfilled prophecies as evidence of his existence? Consider the following Scriptures that emphasize faith:

John 20:24-29

“But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”

Matthew 14:28-31

“And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?”

Matthew 17:20

“And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

Consider the following Scriptures that emphasive faith AND tangible, firsthand evidence.

Matthew 4:23-25

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”

Mark 16:14

“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.”

Hebrews 11:1

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

The preceding Scriptures emphasize the importance of faith, but strangely, the following Scriptures emphasize the importance of faith AND tangible, firsthand evidence:

Matthew 4:23-25

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”

John 2:23

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

John 3:2

“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

John 10:37-38

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

John 11:43-48

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

John 20:30-31

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Acts 14:3

“Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”

1 Corinthians 15:6

“After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.”

Obviously, the New Testament places great importance on tangible, firsthand evidence, not just upon faith.

It is up to Christians to explain why Jesus criticized Thomas for wanting tangible, firsthand evidence that he had risen from the dead, but willingly provided tangible, firsthand evidence to many people who were not willing to accept him based upon his words alone, and in one case (John 10:37-38) even instructed some stubborn people that if they were not willing to believe his words, to believe his miracles.

All Bible prophecies are disputable. I wish to distinguish disputable prophecies from false prophecies. A false prophecy is a prophecy that does not come true. A disputable prophecy does not necessarily have to be a false prophecy. Even if all Bible prophecies are true prophecies, they have failed to convince the majority of the people in the world that they are true prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be far less disputable than any Bible prophecy. In my opinion, no prophecies at all would be much better than 100% disputable prophecies because that would mean that God needlessly creates doubt and confusion, which, since the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, is sufficient evidence that the God of the Bible does not exist.

One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will. It would certainly not have been unfair for Jesus to accurately predict what the names of the Roman emperors would be for the next 200 years, and their dates of birth and death, which would surely have caused more people to become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Since Jesus made some predictions, Christians cannot get away with claiming that he did not want to use prophecy to try to influence people in future generations.

The best evidence indicates that if a God exists, he is not the God of the Bible. If the universe is naturalistic, or if some other God exists who chose to mimic the ways that things would be if the universe is naturalistic, 1) all religions that have books would be spread entirely by word of mouth, which is the case 2) humans would only able to obtain food through human effort no matter what their worldview is, which is the case, 3) it would not be surprising that the percentage of women who are theists is significantly higher than the percentage of men who are theists in every culture, which is the case, 4) it would not be surprising that the percentage of elderly people who change their worldviews is much smaller than the percentage of younger people who change their worldviews, which is the case, 5) hurricanes would kill people, animals, and plants, and destroy property as if there were not any differences between them, which appears to the case, 6) all tangible benefits would indiscriminately distributed at random according to the laws of physics without any regard for a person's needs, requests, or worldview, and the only benefits that anyone could ask God for and expect to receive would be subjective spiritual/emotional benefits, which appears to be the case, 7) it would not be surprising that fossils and sediments are sorted in ways that are convenient for skeptics, and have convinced some evangelical Christian geologists that a global flood did not occur, which is the case, 8) no religious book would contain any indisputable prophecies, which is the case, and 9) it would not be surprising that 50% of the genome of chimpanzees and humans are identical, which is the case.

Now what kind of God would state that he wants people to believe that he exists, but would go to those extremes to mimic a naturalistic universe, or would choose to mimic some other God who chose to mimic the ways that things would be if the universe is naturalistic, thereby undermining his attempts to try to convince people to believe that he exists?

Under certain conditions, children who grew up as Christians would have been skeptics, and they would have been just as certain of their worldviews as they are now. It is well-known that children often choose the same worldview that their parents chose, and that where a person lives often makes a big difference regarding what they believe. It is not reasonable for anyone to assume that a God who wanted people to believe that he exists would allow what people believe to be determined by chance and circumstance when he could easily telepathically communicate the same messages to everyone in the world.

The best evidence indicates that the God of the Bible does not exist. If a God did inspire the Bible, I would never be willing to accept him unless he answered some questions to my satisfaction. One question that I would ask God would by why he only wants people to hear the Gospel message if another person tells them about it. Another question that I would ask God would be why he only wants people to have enough food to eat if they are able to obtain it through human effort. Possibly most of all, I would like to ask God what fair, worthy, and righteous goals would he not be able to achieve without killing people and animals with hurricanes, and without forcing animals to kill each other.

Consider the following arguments that arnoldo used in a thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235305 at the MF&P Forum:

I will include what I previously said to arnoldo regarding the following quote:

As arnoldo was told by me and another skeptic when I mentioned that at the BC&H Forum, by the time that Alexander conquered the island settlement, too many Jews knew about it to alter it after the fact. Considering the fact that a God would not have any trouble at all convincing everyone that he is able to predict the future, arnoldo’s comments were not valid.

Arnoldo has at least two major problems. First of all, the best evidence indicates that the God of the Bible does not exist. Second of all, if a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he is able to convince more people to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will, which would mean that he does not have good character.

Johnny Skeptic

Arnoldo says that I do not understand Bible theology. I submit that arnoldo does not understand Bible theology. I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 30 years, and I understand Bible theology very well. Regarding assessing the character of any being, his motives are everything. One the main reasons, if not the main reason why people refuse to become Christians, or give up Christianity, is because they do not believe that a loving, rational God would act like the God of the Bible sometimes acts. What are God's motives? Matthew1:21 says "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Those Scriptures indicate that God's top priority is to try to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and not to hell. A lot of evidence indicates that that is not God's top priority, or even one of his top priorities.

One of the most absurd claims that fundamentalist Christians make is that God wants people to believe that he can predict the future. If a God exists, and wanted people to believe that he can predict the future, all that he would need to do would be to telepathically tell everyone in the world when and where some natural disasters would occur.

At the GRD Forum, arnoldo said that God likes faith. If God likes faith, then why does he provide supposedly fulfilled prophecies as evidence of his existence? Consider the following Scriptures that emphasize faith:

John 20:24-29

“But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”

Matthew 14:28-31

“And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?”

Matthew 17:20

“And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

Consider the following Scriptures that emphasive faith AND tangible, firsthand evidence.

Matthew 4:23-25

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”

Mark 16:14

“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.”

Hebrews 11:1

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

The preceding Scriptures emphasize the importance of faith, but strangely, the following Scriptures emphasize the importance of faith AND tangible, firsthand evidence:

Matthew 4:23-25

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”

John 2:23

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

John 3:2

“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

John 10:37-38

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

John 11:43-48

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

John 20:30-31

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Acts 14:3

“Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”

1 Corinthians 15:6

“After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.”

Obviously, the New Testament places great importance on tangible, firsthand evidence, not just upon faith.

It is up to Christians to explain why Jesus criticized Thomas for wanting tangible, firsthand evidence that he had risen from the dead, but willingly provided tangible, firsthand evidence to many people who were not willing to accept him based upon his words alone, and in one case (John 10:37-38) even instructed some stubborn people that if they were not willing to believe his words, to believe his miracles.

All Bible prophecies are disputable. I wish to distinguish disputable prophecies from false prophecies. A false prophecy is a prophecy that does not come true. A disputable prophecy does not necessarily have to be a false prophecy. Even if all Bible prophecies are true prophecies, they have failed to convince the majority of the people in the world that they are true prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be far less disputable than any Bible prophecy. In my opinion, no prophecies at all would be much better than 100% disputable prophecies because that would mean that God needlessly creates doubt and confusion, which, since the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, is sufficient evidence that the God of the Bible does not exist.

One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will. It would certainly not have been unfair for Jesus to accurately predict what the names of the Roman emperors would be for the next 200 years, and their dates of birth and death, which would surely have caused more people to become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Since Jesus made some predictions, Christians cannot get away with claiming that he did not want to use prophecy to try to influence people in future generations.

The best evidence indicates that if a God exists, he is not the God of the Bible. If the universe is naturalistic, or if some other God exists who chose to mimic the ways that things would be if the universe is naturalistic, 1) all religions that have books would be spread entirely by word of mouth, which is the case 2) humans would only able to obtain food through human effort no matter what their worldview is, which is the case, 3) it would not be surprising that the percentage of women who are theists is significantly higher than the percentage of men who are theists in every culture, which is the case, 4) it would not be surprising that the percentage of elderly people who change their worldviews is much smaller than the percentage of younger people who change their worldviews, which is the case, 5) hurricanes would kill people, animals, and plants, and destroy property as if there were not any differences between them, which appears to the case, 6) all tangible benefits would indiscriminately distributed at random according to the laws of physics without any regard for a person's needs, requests, or worldview, and the only benefits that anyone could ask God for and expect to receive would be subjective spiritual/emotional benefits, which appears to be the case, 7) it would not be surprising that fossils and sediments are sorted in ways that are convenient for skeptics, and have convinced some evangelical Christian geologists that a global flood did not occur, which is the case, 8) no religious book would contain any indisputable prophecies, which is the case, and 9) it would not be surprising that 50% of the genome of chimpanzees and humans are identical, which is the case.

Now what kind of God would state that he wants people to believe that he exists, but would go to those extremes to mimic a naturalistic universe, or would choose to mimic some other God who chose to mimic the ways that things would be if the universe is naturalistic, thereby undermining his attempts to try to convince people to believe that he exists?

Under certain conditions, children who grew up as Christians would have been skeptics, and they would have been just as certain of their worldviews as they are now. It is well-known that children often choose the same worldview that their parents chose, and that where a person lives often makes a big difference regarding what they believe. It is not reasonable for anyone to assume that a God who wanted people to believe that he exists would allow what people believe to be determined by chance and circumstance when he could easily telepathically communicate the same messages to everyone in the world.

The best evidence indicates that the God of the Bible does not exist. If a God did inspire the Bible, I would never be willing to accept him unless he answered some questions to my satisfaction. One question that I would ask God would by why he only wants people to hear the Gospel message if another person tells them about it. Another question that I would ask God would be why he only wants people to have enough food to eat if they are able to obtain it through human effort. Possibly most of all, I would like to ask God what fair, worthy, and righteous goals would he not be able to achieve without killing people and animals with hurricanes, and without forcing animals to kill each other.

Consider the following arguments that arnoldo used in a thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235305 at the MF&P Forum:

I will include what I previously said to arnoldo regarding the following quote:

As arnoldo was told by me and another skeptic when I mentioned that at the BC&H Forum, by the time that Alexander conquered the island settlement, too many Jews knew about it to alter it after the fact. Considering the fact that a God would not have any trouble at all convincing everyone that he is able to predict the future, arnoldo’s comments were not valid.

Arnoldo has at least two major problems. First of all, the best evidence indicates that the God of the Bible does not exist. Second of all, if a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he is able to convince more people to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will, which would mean that he does not have good character.