Phlox Pyros

No problem. I thought I was being more clear than apparently I have been. I do tend to ramble a bit at times.

There are lots of primary sources (ie. where modern day scholars get their information for their history books). I linked to many of those primary sources.

I'm just trying to find out some information about how informed others in this forum are. Let me put what I'd like to hear in the form of questions as follows:

1) What ancient authors have you read (eg. a list of what you've read)?

2) What is/are your favorite ancient text(s)? Why? (provide links if possible)

3) What is the most fascinating thing you've learned from an ancient author?

Hopefully the questions will make it a little more clear what I'm looking for. I listed ancient authors I've read an just a little bit about them.

My belief is that this shows that people aren't just relying on what a modern scholar says but that they are checking how people really thought and what they really said for themselves. I'd like to see how many in this forum have done so and what interesting things they've learned. I'm sure someone has read something and taken something interesting away that I have not read and perhaps vice versa. Just thought it would be a fun excercise and a wake-up call.

Phlox Pyros

Are you baffled about why people aren't responding, or baffled about what I am asking? Or both?

Anyways, nice photos. I've visited some of Europe, but I'd love to see some places like that, Egypt, Israel, Turkey, Greece, or Italy. One day.... One day...

Roger Pearse

As a collector of these, my doctor says that I am excused from answering one this in case it sounds like bragging.

Tertullian's Apologeticum in the Loeb translation by T.R.Glover had a very great influence on me; first by convincing me that the work had power while I was at college, and, 15 years later, getting me involved in Tertullian studies. Much of what it says is still valid today.

Tertullian's De praescriptione haereticorum is full of really good stuff, and, in Greenslade's modern translation (which used to be at Tertullian.org, and can be found at archive.org for that site) it is probably my current favourite.

That people in ancient times were no more stupid than we are; and that there are things we can learn from them. The apologetic approach of Tertullian is one that modern Christians need to learn from.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Phlox Pyros

Wierd (personal?) question... Are you sympathetic to Tertullian's Montanism? How do those beliefs play into your statement "Much of what it says is still valid today."?

I haven't read that one. I'm going to have to take a look now.

Thanks much! This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for and provides possible further conversation opportunites! Thanks.

Amen to that!

Roger Pearse

Well, in my very humble opinion no-one today has any certain knowledge of what Montanism was. The ancient accounts read to me as if there were at least two different versions. I am unconvinced that African and Asian Montanism were necessarily the same things.

But I know that some pentecostals consider that Montanism may have been an early form of pentecostalism; and I suspect that perhaps this is what you have in mind? As a matter of fact, when I converted to Christianity, it was in a semi-pentecostal environment, and these ideas were indeed floating around, and that is when I heard his name first mentioned. It was this that led me to recognise his name when I saw it, in a row of Loebs at college, and to pick it up and read it. That in turn was the genesis of my interest in his work.

Tertullian does not really expound Montanism in his works. The work in which he did so -- De exstasi -- is lost, and no doubt did not survive the collapse of antiquity. His 4 Montanist works survive since their themes were of interest to Dark Ages monks.

My own interest is in his descriptions of ancient society, and his apologetics with reference to the accusations made against the Christians.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Just a postscript:

I am not quite certain of this, but there are certain things about ancient society which we all know but IIRC are only recorded by Tertullian.

1. That when a triumph was celebrated, a slave stood by the imperator whispering "remember you are mortal" (or whatever it was).

2. That Pompey got around the Roman ban on permanent theatres by building a temple at the top of his.

3. That the arena was attended by figures dressed as Mercury and Pluto, and that a red-hot caduceus was used to check that the dead were not faking it.

The second book of his Ad Nationes, preserved in a single damaged manuscript (most damaged at that point), is a huge source for early Roman mythology.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Malachi151

I have included a lot of early Chrisitian writings in my article on evolution:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...nst_Naturalism

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...stic_Worldview

Roger Pearse

This appears to select from those pagan philosophers whose ideas happen to coincide with modern ones; and those of the fathers whose ideas (often following other philosophers) do not. In reality the fathers had no fixed opinion on these issues, any more than the philosophers did; and while rejecting philosophy-as-paganism, adopted a range of views on these things. It's never a good sign when the main witness is the relatively obscure Lactantius.

I always look at the even dafter Cosmas Indicopleustes. In his work, we see the wildest ideas being advocated, supposedly as biblical, for 5 books. People have quoted him as if he were representative of Christian thought. But if we read on, there is another 5 books dealing (unconvincingly) with the complaints of his fellow monks that he was bonkers!

I'm sure this has been gone through a fair number of times before.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Malachi151

Oh Please. The positions I have quoted are very representative. If you don't think so, please provide quotes of early Chrisitans who are defenders of Epicurus, atomism, materialism, worldly philosophy, etc.

Please provide quotes from early Chrisitians that defend the idea that the earth is a globe, on which there are humans living on all sides of it, and that there are other stars and other planets, and that there is life on other planets.

Yes, please provide this early Christian wisdom...

Phlox Pyros

Roger has obviously read a lot of the Church Fathers, so I would assume he knows what he's talking about. However, before the thread gets derailed....

Here is one of my favorite ancient authors already mentioned, Vitruvius. I'll provide the link to where he talks of how to make an ancient "sound system" of sorts for a theatre....cool stuff!

Vitruvius 5.5:

Here is just a sampling to maybe grab your interest:
"By the adoption of this plan, the voice which issues from the scene, expanding as from a centre, and striking against the cavity of each vase, will sound with increased clearness and harmony, from its unison with one or other of them. If, however, the theatre be on a larger scale, the height is to be divided into four parts, so that three ranges of cavities may be provided, one for harmonic, the second for chromatic, and the third for diatonic vases. That nearest the bottom is for the harmonic genus as above described, for a lesser theatre."

He writes of many other interesting things, and it will give you an idea of the technology the Romans had around the time of Jesus:
Topics in Vitruvius' work

Pliny the Elder is another ancient author who lived around the time of Jesus. He also has many interesting topics to read about. I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think he has a section about "The Phoenix", a mythical bird that many ancients believe existed. Wish I could find it again...it was interesting.