avi

Question: What is this “Holy Spirit” that Jesus will employ? The Greek original is:
“pneumati agiw”--> this is the “spirit holy”.

So, what did pneumati agiw mean to the people fluent in Greek, 2000 years ago?

again, “to pneuma to agion” spirit holy.

“to pneuma to agion”

In both Psalms 51:11, and Isaiah 63:10,11 of the Septuagint, we find that “to pneuma to agion” is translated as “holy spirit”. The reference, however, in both citations, is to the traditional monotheistic Hebrew “God”, not some entity distinct from God, such as the trinitarian “holy ghost”.

“...take not thy holy spirit from me” Psalms 51:11
“...and vexed his holy spirit. … Where is he that put his holy spirit within them?” Isaiah 63:10,11.

“pneuma”, of course, refers to the act of breathing. “his holy spirit”, as is described in these two books of the old testament, refers to a property of God, an anthropomorphic assignment of the breath of life to a supernatural deity. The concept then, is that we live, only because God has granted us his breath of life to use, until such time as he withdraws his permission to use it, and we die. Note that this permission is universally applied on planet earth, since all living things, plants, animals, and bacteria, engage in respiration.

1.What impact does this interpretation of “pneuma to agion” have on the concept of baptism? Since all of God's creatures require his permission to exist, what need is there for baptism? Why is infant baptism, in particular, a desirable feature, given that the decision to permit respiration, like the decision to enter God's home, heaven, is exclusively in God's hands? How can mere humans engage in “baptism”, i.e. sprinkling water, while mumbling incantations, as if instructing God to admit the designee to heaven? What possible justification do mere mortals possess, to claim competence to instruct a deity—to inform the deity of the worthiness of some particular human to pass through heaven's gate? Is this assignment of ability to instruct God derived from Judaism, or Greek Pagan practices? How does a sprinkling of water, (or immersion in water) cleanse a “sinful” person, or infant, sufficiently, to warrant admission of that person to the exclusive club of heaven? How does absence of this sprinkling, plus incantation, rule out admission to heaven, irrespective of one's deeds while alive (and breathing--> only by the grace of God)?

2.Does the Hebrew Masoretic text use words corresponding to “holy respiration”, i.e. “pneumato agios” as the Septuagint does? When did the Jews first associate washing and bathing with breathing? Why don't the Jews engage in baptism? What is the connection, if any, between the ritual bathing/cleansing of the dead corpse, and baptism?

3.How does some object, or some locale, or some process, or some person, become “holy”? Often this word, “agion” is employed in the septuagint to differentiate regions, objects, procedures, or people, in contrast with the new testament-->where “agios” is generally associated with the ephemeral “spirit”, representing the third component of the supreme being. Do we find this word in other Greek literature from the years ~~300 BCE, to 300 CE? For example, does Aristotle use either of these words, “pneuma” or “agios”, in the same context as it has been used in the Septuagint, (or the New Testament)? If Aristotle does use either word, what do these words mean to him? In other words, is this “holy spirit” business, with which Jesus was to baptize the Palestinians, something entirely new, or was it already understood upon reading septuagint?

Exodus 3:5 “...which you are standing is holy ground...”
Exodus 20:8 “...the sabbath day, and keep it holy”
Leviticus 11:44 “...and be holy, for I am holy”
Joshua 5:15 “the place where you stand is holy”
Isaiah 2:2 “There is no holy one like the lord”
Psalms 2:6 “Set my king on Zion, my holy hill”

Matthew 1:18 “...pregnant by the Holy Spirit”
Matthew 3:11 “I indeed baptize you in water, … He shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.”
Matthew 12:32 “...whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit...”
Matthew 28:18 “...in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit,...”
Mark 3:29 “...whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit...”
Mark 13:11 “...For it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 1:15 “...He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.”
Luke 1:41 “...and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”

4.Why does John the Baptist juxtapose Jesus' baptism rituals with both “Holy Spirit”, and with fire? How does fire fit into the picture? Is it coming from Judaism, or Greek mythology, or Persian/Egyptian religious notions? Is this a reference to Zoroastrianism?

Avi

Clivedurdle

No - anaerobic.

Trinitarian Theology can't be based on biological mistakes can it? What was that about virgin births and resurrections?

avi

Hi Clive, thanks for your reply, sorry, you are in error:

anaerobic respiration, and

cellular respiration

The purpose of this thread was to gain some better understanding about these two Greek words, agios and pneuma--origin, widely understood meaning--2k years ago, and relationship, if any, to Jewish ritual, or Greek pagan practices....

regards,
avi

No Robots

"Holy Spirit"--Jewish Encyclopedia.

avi

Thank you No_robots, that is a very helpful article, sorry that I did not know of it, beforehand....
avi

Clivedurdle

http://blog.beliefnet.com/scienceand...-creation.html

Are we to conclude that the breath of god, the holy spirit, is oxygen or photosynthesis?

And why no mention of Sophia?

Clivedurdle

And on relationships to Baptism, why not follow Greek Science?

What do we have?

Breath = air

Baptism of water

Baptism of fire

Now what might represent earth in xianity?

avi

Sophia

1. I guess you wish to imply that my submission was too verbose, and too broad/inclusive. If so, I accept your criticism!
2. Alternatively, if there is some connection between Sophia and "pneumato" or "agios", then, I don't yet know it. Feel free to elaborate.

Neither one, Clive. "pneumato" refers to respiration. The French word, Pneumatology, is that component of medicine dealing with respiratory disease. Respiration is required of all living things, though, breathing, or exchanging air or oxygen is not. The "breath of life" or "holy spirit", represents simply the opportunity to continue breathing, at least, that's my take on the words "pneumato agios".

What is of interest to me, is how the original meaning of the words gradually changed, so that the "holy ghost" became either an entity separate from God, or, a third head of the same god, depending on how one attempts to understand the trinitarian doctrine. As I read, and attempt to understand the old testament, it looks to me as though "holy spirit" was something unique to God, and not something that Jesus or anyone else could appropriate, i.e. to do with as he pleased, e.g. baptize people with it, as is recorded in Matthew.

avi

No Robots

Pneumatology is the study of spiritual beings and phenomena, especially the interactions between humans and God. Pneuma (πνεύμα) is Greek for "breath", which metaphorically describes a non-material being or influence.

It is Christ's self-understanding as the embodiment of Spirit that is the core of his conflict with religious authority.

avi

Yes you are absolutely correct, and I am in error, first time in the past twenty minutes....

The proper French word is "Pneumologie". Sorry for my clumsiness.

Here, I am not simply confused, as usual, rather, I am bewildered. I have no idea what you mean.

With which religious authority was the mythical Jesus supposed to have quarreled? The Pharisees--those Jews, who, as I understand it, retained an element of Persian (Farsi==>Pharisee) thinking in their demeanor, or the Sadducees, or both?

I was under the impression that the itinerant preacher was more or less ignored by the religious folks, and of concern to the Romans only because he sought to usurp Roman authority by declaring himself King of the Jews, a function reserved exclusively for the Roman Emperor. I was also under the impression, that only the Romans wielded power of life and death, via Crucifixion, so that Jesus' crime must have been related to challenging Roman State political authority, rather than Jewish religious laws and customs.

If I have it all backwards, please straighten me out!!!!

The issues which I had hoped this thread could address, seem not too interesting to anyone else:

how did the ancient Greeks use these two words: "pneuma" and "agios"?

How did ancient Hebrews describe the same two concepts: Spirit and Holy. Is the "holy spirit" a concrete entity, for the Jews, i.e. a synonym for Yahweh, or is it rather a quality, a trait of Yahweh, rather than an entity per se?

When John the Baptist describes Jesus using "fire", rather than water, to perform the ceremony of baptism, is John referring to physical flames and heat, similar to branding cows with a hot iron, or is the reference to fire simply a metaphor? Is this notion of purification with fire coming from Zoroastrianism, or perhaps Hinduism?

avi