Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Casper · 02-15-2008, 01:25 PM

I think that if the issue was quelling revolt, the slave-religion meme wouldn't have been quick enough, and if it was to stem revolt it didn't work very well, and would have been a departure in thinking.

Interesting stuff though.

Sheshbazzar · 02-15-2008, 01:51 PM

Greed, Wealth and unrestrained Power first, by which means everything else is very quickly brought to submissiion.

Clivedurdle · 02-15-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

I think that if the issue was quelling revolt, the slave-religion meme wouldn't have been quick enough, and if it was to stem revolt it didn't work very well, and would have been a departure in thinking.

Interesting stuff though.

The US is talking of the war on terrorism lasting years and years, why assume the Romans were not in the long game here?

In any case it was an experiment for them - the results were not predictable, but the gospels are definitely using classic propaganda techniques - we believe the Pharisees were the baddies for example. Another part of Britannica states the Pharisees believed in eternal life so there is confusion about what they did believe!

mountainman · 02-15-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

How then to explain the Roman state persecution of Xianity?

Wasn't that much - if it happened - compared with:

Quote:

6,600 of Spartacus's followers were crucified along the via Appia (or the Appian Way) from Brundisium to Rome. Crassus never gave orders for the bodies to be taken down, thus travelers were forced to see the bodies for years, perhaps decades, after the final battle.

Around 5,000 slaves, however, escaped the capture. They fled north and were later destroyed by Pompey, who was coming back from Roman Iberia. This enabled him also to claim credit for ending this war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus

Also the incident of Trajan crucifying 2,000 Jews
of the city of Ammaus early 2nd century. Has anyone
ever related this massacre to the resurrection
appearance of the Jesus Body at that town?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Toto · 02-16-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...

Also the incident of Trajan crucifying 2,000 Jews of the city of Ammaus early 2nd century. Has anyone ever related this massacre to the resurrection appearance of the Jesus Body at that town?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

You say here

Quote:

In his rule 2,000 Jews of the town Emmaus were crucified, according to Florus, Epitome of Roman History (II,88)

Could you provide a more precise date and reference for this?

There seems to be some question of identifying Ammaus or Emmaus in Josephus with the Lukan city.

Josephus War of the Jews Whiston translation

Quote:

(13) That the city Emmaus, or Areindus, in Josephus and others which was the place of the government of Julius Africanus were slain, to the number of one thousand seven hundred, as were the women and the children made slaves. But as Bassus thought he must perform the covenant he had made with those that had surrendered the citadel, he let them go, and restored Eleazar to them, in the beginning of the third century, and which he then procured to be rebuilt, and after which rebuilding it was called Nicopolis, is entirely different from that Emmaus which is mentioned by St. Luke 24;13; see Reland's Paleestina, lib. II. p. 429, and under the name Ammaus also. But he justly thinks that that in St. Luke may well be the same with his Ammaus before us, especially since the Greek copies here usually make it sixty furlongs distant from Jerusalem, as does St. Luke, though the Latin copies say only thirty. The place also allotted for these eight hundred soldiers, as for a Roman garrison, in this place, would most naturally be not so remote from Jerusalem as was the other Emmaus, or Nicopolis.

mountainman · 02-16-2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Could you provide a more precise date and reference for this?

There seems to be some question of identifying Ammaus or Emmaus in Josephus with the Lukan city.

Josephus War of the Jews Whiston translation

Quote:

(13) That the city Emmaus, or Areindus, in Josephus and others which was the place of the government of Julius Africanus were slain, to the number of one thousand seven hundred, as were the women and the children made slaves. But as Bassus thought he must perform the covenant he had made with those that had surrendered the citadel, he let them go, and restored Eleazar to them, in the beginning of the third century, and which he then procured to be rebuilt, and after which rebuilding it was called Nicopolis, is entirely different from that Emmaus which is mentioned by St. Luke 24;13; see Reland's Paleestina, lib. II. p. 429, and under the name Ammaus also. But he justly thinks that that in St. Luke may well be the same with his Ammaus before us, especially since the Greek copies here usually make it sixty furlongs distant from Jerusalem, as does St. Luke, though the Latin copies say only thirty. The place also allotted for these eight hundred soldiers, as for a Roman garrison, in this place, would most naturally be not so remote from Jerusalem as was the other Emmaus, or Nicopolis.

I have not actually read the text of Florus and thus
cannot provide further info on this. That citation came
from Terry Jone's book Barbarians (via Clivedurdle's tip).

Since Trajan reigned through to 117 CE, this event would
have had to have occurred between 101 and 117 CE.

Best wishes

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 02-19-2008, 07:52 AM

Interesting thoughts from Joe Atwill

Quote:

Hi Clive:

My analysis simply shows that Jesus was a typological character.

Thus, the Gospel stories concerning a Christ whose followers were predicted to ‘fish for men’ at the Sea of Galilee, the demoniac of Gadara, the human Passover Lamb, the three crucified but one survives, and the conclusion where Simon is condemned but John spared etc. are based upon Josephus’s history of Titus’ campaign. To see this requires a bit of work, of course, but as the stories occur in the same sequence, it is not too difficult.

The authors hid many clues. For example, had Josephus called John of Gischala a demoniac in his description of him before the battle of Gadara in Wars Book 4, 7 the relationship between that 'John' and the Gospels' demoniac would be crystal clear and Christianity might not be a world wide religion today. So the fact that John was a demoniac was given later - in Book 7, chapter 6, 185 and chapter 8, 263.

As far as the relationship between the religion that sprang from the Gospels and slavery, though I regard speculation of Caesar psychology as dubious, it appears to me that the primary reason for the writing of the Jesus/Titus typology was vanity. They were a way for Titus to show posterity that he had not failed in his effort to force the Jews to call him ‘Lord’. It is possible that the Gospels were not even read to the public before Flavius Constantine used them to establish Christianity as the State religion. But this is irrelevant to your point, in that the characters the Gospels depicted certainly supported slavery.

How else can one interpret the Gospels passages concerning the treatment of servants? (To say nothing of Paul’s outright promotion of slavery.)

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

Because the Gospels have been so misunderstood, there have been irrational and far fetched efforts to harmonize Jesus’ statements concerning ‘servants’ with his stature as the prince of Peace. However, once the Gospels are understood as Roman literature, the fact that they are supportive of slavery becomes self-evident.

Joe

mountainman · 02-19-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Interesting thoughts from Joe Atwill

Quote:

It is possible that the Gospels were not even read to the public before Flavius Constantine used them to establish Christianity as the State religion. But this is irrelevant to your point, in that the characters the Gospels depicted certainly supported slavery.

Thanks for those interesting thoughts Clive and Joe. It is interesting to note that the fiction postulate has an optional number of both fall-back and developmental pathways.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 02-20-2008, 08:19 AM

Well, that proves the gospels are Roman pro slavery works of fiction doesn't it? I assume the silence is agreement!:devil1:

mountainman · 02-20-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

"Historians must be prepared to admit
in any given case that they are unable
to reach safe conclusions because the
evidence is insufficient; like judges,
historians must be ready to say 'not proven'."

ON PAGANS, JEWS, and CHRISTIANS
--- Arnaldo Momigliano, 1987

But this is a two edged sword.

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02-15-2008, 01:25 PM	#51
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	I think that if the issue was quelling revolt, the slave-religion meme wouldn't have been quick enough, and if it was to stem revolt it didn't work very well, and would have been a departure in thinking. Interesting stuff though.

02-15-2008, 01:51 PM	#52
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Greed, Wealth and unrestrained Power first, by which means everything else is very quickly brought to submissiion.

02-20-2008, 08:19 AM	#59
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Well, that proves the gospels are Roman pro slavery works of fiction doesn't it? I assume the silence is agreement!:devil1:

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