Chris Weimer

Been there, done that. All you do is claim "forgery" without any evidence of there actually being forgery.

J-D

Why? Apparently, because it pleases you to do so. Well, fine. Go ahead. Enjoy yourself. Knock yourself out. Just don't expect that anybody else will be taken in.I don't know who you're talking about, but I have never professed to be an academic. I am not an academic. I am just somebody who can recognise methodological bankruptcy.OK, I note and acknowledge it. Fantastic. I hope you really enjoyed doing that. Feel better now?Logic is used to reason to a conclusion. What conclusion are you reasoning to here? That the inscription you mention was not necessarily a Christian one? Fine. So what?Abusing people does not strengthen your case.Who indeed? Certainly not anybody relying on your flawed methodology.

Fortuna

Hi Pete,

As we have discussed in the past, I do not believe that you have addressed the early Christian artwork that is to be found in the Christian/Jewish Catacombs of Rome, specifically those of Callixtus(sp?) and that of Domatilla (which is supposedly the earliest and does contain Christian artwork).

Unfortunately, I cannot find any good scholarly guide to thiese works, but I do know that Joseph Byrne of Belmont U (Belmont is in Nashville I believe) is said to have pictures of some of the artwork from Domatilla. I myself have seen some of it from several decades ago when they allowed tours to go into certain areas of D and C, which they no loger permit, and they do not (and did not several decades ago) allow flash photography (well, they wouldn't allow us to phtograph it at the time). In my more recent visits (last one back in 2005) they no longer go very far into Callixtus as I remember, and unfortunately I had only limited time and could not make it to Domatilla.

Also, there is a citation from Jerome (I believe) where Jerome mentions himself as a child visiting the Christian catacombs of Rome, and at that time remarking that they were ancient at that time.

Byrne has a site with a few images of some of the Christian artwork (http://campus.belmont.edu/honors/cat.../catacombs.htm) but there aren;t any specifics about the individual images, how they are dated, etc. I would suggest you write Dr Byrne at Belmont and see if he would provide you some specifics. Also, I've heard that the Vatican does host some private tours of them, and they likely have pictures and information about the artwork of the Cats, so you might try them as well.

Good Luck Pete..I hope you solve this one way or the other.

Fortuna

mountainman

The catacombs of Rome and the renovation of these
by the first pope to hold the millenia old role of pontifex
maximus, Pope Damasius, renovated them in the 360's.

See this page for my comments, and C14 reports on Callixtus.


See the C14 analysis report linked at the above page.
It does not provide any compelling evidence IMO.


I am not arguing that they are not ancient.
They are very ancient. But when did they see
anything "Christian"? That is the question.

Thanks mate,

That's the spirit. I am glad someone understand the
operating conditions of evidence.

When I first posted here some time back and asked
for archeological and/or scientific citations which
support the existence of Pre-Nicene Christianity,
I got referred to a few books, which provided a
total of over 60 citations.

Each of these citations is not unambiguously
"christian" as per this in-depth review.

What does this tell us?
It says that the Pre-Nicene epoch
is silent on the question of Christians
with repect to papyri and epigraphy.

And art. The "christian art" studies is
indicative of an "Emperor-Centric Christ"
with effect from the fourth century.
See another Peter Brown on this.

No statues. No architecture, no coins,
no trinckets, nothing except the bullshit
delivered by bullneck.

djrafikie

So you are suggesting that someone made a word up? Hang about, are you discussing the existance of RELIGIONS or word roots?
Because suggesting that someone invented xtianity in the 4thC and then saying that nobody invented paganism, but the same dude happened to make a word up, doesn't hang.

Someone clearly coined the "phrase" xtinaity at some point, but this doesn't mean the religion did not exist. Thats like saying the microwave oven was not a microwave oven before someone decided to call it that.. it's patent bollocks.

mountainman

Then which of the following inscriptions and/or
papyri which I claim NOT unambiguously christian do
you think may be christian? Or are you saying
this data is valueless?

INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Inscriptions

01 253 CE - de Rossi's Cornelius Stone [Probable forgery].
02 250 CE - The Marcus son of Alexander inscription. ["I beg of you, kind brothers, by the one God"]
03 217 CE - the Marcus Aurelius Prosenes inscription. [Later hand: "welcomed before god"]
04 250 CE - Basilides Inscription, Ostia, Rome [The phrase "he sleeps" is christian?]
05 3rd CE - "Helix" athlete, Eumenia. [not located]
06 3rd CE - Nicomedia, Bithnya: 3rd CE Phoenician wood carver. [not located]
07 3rd CE - Aurelius Aristeas Inscription, Akmonein. ["reckon with the righteousness of God."]
08 1st CE - Erastus Inscription, mid first century. ["Paul mentions an Erastus"]
09 3rd CE - Fox; Harland; Snyder - Asia Minor and Phrygia ["he will reckon with (the living) God." ].
10 200 CE - The Marcus Demetrianos Inscription ["most holy ones who also had faith in God"].
11 216 CE - Inscription of Abercius [Cannot be unambiguously associated with christianity]
12 253 CE - Inscription of Pectorius. [Cannot be unambiguously associated with christianity]



INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Papyrii and Papyrii Fragments

101 sql CE: P.Oxy 5 "christian". [Nomina sacra ?]
102 3rd CE: P.Bas 17 [non christian]
103 303 CE: P.Oxy 43 Nighwatchmen's report - 2 churches. [two churches]
104 sql CE: P.Oxy 210 A "christian" fragment. [Nomina sacra ?]
105 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 405 Irenaeus.[Dating?]
106 3/4 CE: P.Oxy 407 "christian amulet; 3rd/4th century". [4th amulet]
107 265 CE: P.Oxy. 412 and 907[Nomina sacra ?]
108 2nd CE: PSI.XIV.1412 "via Sotas, the christian". [chrestian?]
109 3rd CE: P.Oxy 1786 Hymn with music "christian". [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]
110 3rd CE: P.Oxy 2070 Scratch pad "christian". [abbreviated (I梙?) 'Jesus']
111 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 2276[ 搃n the lord god? ]
112 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 2404 [ 搃n the lord god? ]
113 256 CE: P.Oxy 3035 Order to arrest "chrestian". [citation is "chrestian"]
114 3rd CE: P.Oxy 4365 Booklending.[incorrectly presumed christian]
115 3/4 CE: P.Oxy 1493 lines 4?5; Nomina sacra in letter with virtually no other Christian identifiers[Nomina sacra]




What is the general description of the
fourth century literature Historia Augusta?

What terms did the fourth century Emperor
Julian use to define the christian religion?

What term did Constantine himself use in
his Oration ....

"We may be suspected of clever forgery"
said the Boss to his new troops, civilians and saints,
but our best intelligence people assure us
that these things definitely aren't fake."

Forgery has been part of business since day
one of writing. Fraudulent misrepresentation of
ancient history is the charge arraigned against
Constantine.

He created a pseudo-history to be associated with
his new and strange Emperor cult, that self-perpetuated
itself from Nicaea, until it became supreme at the end of the
4th century, after burning out the opposition through
persecution and intolerance.

djrafikie

uhu, next time post a LINK, lists of crap make my eyes hurt.

mountainman

I am saying that Constantine invented Christianity in the fourth
century, fully equipped with a (pseudo-) history, manuals, reference
guides, quich-reference reckoners, and the works.

At the same time, a religious "otherness was broadcast".
Anyone who was a non-christian and not a jew was a pagan.
The word pagan first appeared in the fourth century,
and was used by christians at that time.

I am saying that Christianity and its opposite pagansism
came into the world like a particle and its anti-particle,
together. The religion and the religious other.

It was a racket invented by Constantine.
I can find no evidence for it outside of Constantine.

The world may like to take Eusebius into their hearts.
But not me. The christian literature is a fourth
century fabrication, using the wisdom literature
of other authors.

djrafikie

I'm not going to argue that the bible is not cobbled together out of a number of pre-existant writings and folklore, it patently IS and there is a whole bundle of proof to support that theory.

But, I don't think it was all cooked up by one guy... i think it existed anyway (as a faith) and in the same manner it has absorbed many pagan traditions (xmas, harvest festival, etc) quite recently, it was busily doing the same to folklore back then.

The fact that it HAS absorbed other traditions recently (I'm talking hundreds or years ago here, as opposed to thousands) strongly suggests that this has always been a characteritic of the faith, the way the content mirrors some greek legends (which we know predate it) supports that idea.

There is, however, no evidence to suggest that constantine made it all up....

J-D

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...91#post4788091