Jedi Mind Trick

But you see, that’s the problem. First, we do not have the original texts. Secondly, what we do have is open to a great deal of interpretation. The bible is not clear and is even contradictory on some of its most basic concepts. Take Salvation for instance and the question “What must I do to be saved.�
Believe on the lord Jesus Christ alone?
Believe and be baptized?
Believe, be baptized, and take sacraments?
Believe, be baptized, forsake the sin nature?
Believe, be baptized, give all to the poor?
Then come all the other things that are implied by various denominations.


So, what happens after salvation?
Can I loose it?
If I can then how?
If I have lost it can I get it back?
If I can then how?
If I can’t loose it then what of righteous conduct?
If I commit a sin does this demonstrate that I was never called and elected?

This is only a sample of the variety of opinions and the questions they raise.
I had studied these and frustrated over them for 17 years. I have heard just about every argument from either side and guess what… They all make a good solid case. This is because the bible is not clear.


So saying interpretation does not negate the meaning of the original only begs the question. Who’s interpretation is concomitant with the bible’s true meaning?

Yes that is what Canon means… Do you know who was the first church Father to devise a cannon? It was Marcion, you know, the Heretic. His cannon was much different than yours. The other Fathers favored different cannons as well. It was all finally “decided� in the fourth century or there about.

Yes and Paul was at odds with those he called the “super apostles� and those sent from James. This issue is spot on the topic… I think that you are the one just dismissing here. The issue is that differing opinion is a FACT the Christian faith so any more chaff sifting that results in the TRUTH™ is just another opinion.

gee

hughmcjr;


"Kind of a contradiction isnt it, relying on the very people who were trying to snuff out the origins of your religon."

Kinda' cool I think. What motive would the opposition have to advance Christianity? What reason would they have to lie about Christianity (except to degrade it)? If anything they'd play it down and try to erase it.

Many extra-biblical accounts of Jesus are not positive.

Little John;

I don't disagree with many of the facts as you've presented them.

Here's a few points where we differ;

"But you see, that’s the problem. First, we do not have the original texts."

Granted, but as far as ancient texts go it fares pretty well against others of the period. Even given the argument that they are not inspired. (OT and NT)

"It was all finally “decided� in the fourth century"

There's nothing stopping me from looking at any of the extra-biblical writings (including the apochrypha) that you have mentioned. If I don't feel comfortable or have questions there are plenty of scholars (on both sides) that I can look to.

"This is because the bible is not clear"
In some areas? yes. In my view, in key areas the scriptures are very clear.

"Who’s interpretation is concomitant with the bible’s true meaning?"
I have my opinions on this; depending on which issue.

"The issue is that differing opinion is a FACT the Christian faith"
If you're saying that 'differing opinion (among Christians) is a FACT, then we both agree.

"....TRUTHâ„¢ is just another opinion."
I believe in an ultimate truth. The search for truth is an honorable pursuit. One in which good people disagree. The truth doesn't change just because we differ on some details.

gee

Weltall

There are extra-biblical accounts of a historical Jesus? Where?
Just so we're clear, what do you see as the key areas?

IvanJames

Yeah, Japan's a real "rathole". So's Western Europe. Yeah, screw them. And from what I read in here, the UK & Australia/nz must be real "hellholes", too, seeing as there are so many atheists.

Yeah, I'd never want to live in any of THOSE places.



---Ivan James

hughmcjr

Yes somehow for 5000+ years people have lived in other places than the USA...and have survived and thrived. What arrogance to think we have the market on the best place to live. My cousins in Australia heard it was so good here....spent 6 months visiting and were grateful to go back home...they have a god quality of life there...so do many places in the world.

gee

hughmcjr;

"There are extra-biblical accounts of a historical Jesus? Where?"

Several ancient historians positively and negatively refer to Jesus. Their easy to find. Search the internet. The Qu'aran (sp?) refers to Christians, and Jesus.

"Just so we're clear, what do you see as the key areas?"
I don't want to open a can of worms here but let's just use one. The first sentence in the Old Testament for example.

gee

Sven

You do know that these sources are all very late (at least 2nd century) and thus are most likely based on the gospels/Christian claims, not on actually independent sources?

And it wasn't hughmcjr who posted this - it was Weltall. How about using the quote-function to prevent misattributions like this?

jonesg

I wouldn't call Jerry Falwell a liberal christian , on PBS's "Bible Mysteries " he said 'its the word of God but THROUGH the hand of man'.

An honest search for the Truth usually ends up at God, the perfect trick is finding your life or current state of being in the bible and asking what the solution is posed by the bible.
A lot of atheists would chime in something about being condemned to hell by a wrathfull God or the current misery in the world , if so, that neatly describes where they're presently at.

Weltall

None are contemporary, none are even secondhand. The clearest example Christians have is almost certainly a later insertion by a Liar for Jesus.
Proof of nothing. Christianity had been around for centuries when the Qur'an was written. Lord of the Rings refers to Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits. Does that constitute proof that they are real?
Nuts, I was hoping you'd have something about moral teachings I could have fun with. Instead you give us this... Ok, I'll grant you that it's pretty clear the first line refers to your invisible friend creating the universe, so what? I'll let the fact that it's an unsupported assertion pass, why don't you give us something more substantial. Feel free to start a new thread if you like.

French Prometheus

Hmm, no.

I don't think I really need the advice of Iron Age goat-herders to help me live my life in the 21st century.