sugarhitman

Sin and disorder are products of Satan. Anything that is contrary to order is not from God so the God created homosexuality in birds and animals theory is flawed.


Violence and unnatural acts were introduced by Satan the author of confusion and disorder.

Blackclaw

But God created Satan. Did Satan's actions catch God by surprise?

sugarhitman

Did God create Satan yes but without sin.
Did Satan's actions catch God by surprise? Does God automatically looks into one's future or does he have a choice?

Johnny Skeptic

By the same token, perhaps you could explain why you believe what you believe. Please start a new thread at the General Religious Discussions Forum and state why you believe what you believe. If you do that, I will start a new thread there and state why I believe what I believe. Readers can rest assured that you will refuse to do that which you asked me to do, which proves that you are intellectually dishonest.

If you refuse to state why you believe what you believe, how can skeptics adequately reply to your arguments?

Please do not make false statements. A web definition for the word "substantive" is as follows:

"substantial: having a firm basis in reality and being therefore important, meaningful, or considerable; "substantial equivalents."

According to that definition, you have refused to reply to many substantive arguments that I have made. The following issues are most certainly important and meaningful:

1 - The flood. You believe that a global flood occured. A few days ago, I told you about a thread about the flood at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=259291 at the Evolution/Creation Forum. You made a couple of posts, quickly realized that you were in trouble, and conveniently took the next bus out of town. The claim that a global flood occurred is utterly absurd. In order to believe the claim, a person has to abandon common sense, logic, reason, history, and science.

2 - Inerrancy. Although inerrancy is the basis for most of your beliefs, you have always conveniently refused to discuss it because you did not want to embarrass yourself. Inerrancy is merely an appeal to emotions, and yet you have claimed that Christians should not abandon common sense, logic, and reason. Although inerrantists have accused skeptics of wanting God to act like they want him to act, they (inerrantists) have an emotional need to have God act like they want him to act, and that includes providing Christians with inerrant texts. Inerrantists can easily image a God who kills babies and innocent animals, but for some odd reason they cannot imagine a God who would not inspire and preserve the Bible. If, as many Christians claim, God is not obligated to save anyone, he certainly is not obligated to provide Christians with inerrant texts, which invites the question "Why do you believe that the Bible is inerrant?"

3 - Firsthand, eyewitness accounts. I said:

You conveniently refused to reply to those arguments.

4 - Opinions and speculations. Consider the following:

As you know, a few days ago I started a new thread at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=259452 at the General Religious Discussion Forums and quoted what you said. The title is "How is the Bible not the personal opinions of the authors?" You conveniently refused to make any posts in that thread.

As you know, a few days ago I started a new thread at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=259383 at the General Religious Discussion Forums and quoted what you said. The title is "A fundie says "Speculation proves nothing and never will." You conveniently refused to make any posts in that thread.

You are obviously afraid to go to the General Religious Discussions Forum because much greater latitude and variety are allowed at that forum than at most other forums. If you do not have any intention of going to the General Religious Discussions Forum to discuss anthing, please say so.

Consider the following claims:

1 - The God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth.

2 - A global flood occured.

3 - The Ten Plagues occured in Egypt.

4 - Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

5 - Jesus was born of a virgin.

6 - Jesus never sinnned.

7 - Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind.

Those are very important claims. Now will you please tell us why those claims are not the personal opinions of the authors, and why the claims are not speculative? Obviously, claims 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7 must be accepted entirely by faith, or rejected. Common sense, logic, reason, science, and history cannot be used to verify the claims. Regarding claims 2 and 3, history and science, including archaeology, do not back up the claims. It is incredible that for years you have claimed that arguments from skeptics are personal opinions, and are speculative. I do not know of any claim that is more speculative than the claim that the Bible is inerrant, with the claim that a global flood occurred running a close second.

Many skeptics are quite interested in the process that led to you rubber-stamping hundreds of Bible claims that do not have any basis at all in science and history.

Blackclaw

[QUOTE=sugarhitman;5737235]So Satan created sin? Before Satan did this then there was no free will?

That's what I'm asking. What are God's limits? How can you say he created perfection when it became imperfect so quickly and was made imperfect by one of his own creations?

If God wanted to fix it, why not just snap his fingers and revert Eden back to the point in time before the fall. Why not just unmake Satan and all that he did?

If God is all powerful then he is capable of making the world perfect, but he does not. Therefore he is not all powerful or else he does not want a perfect world. He allows disorder to exist.

sugarhitman

[QUOTE=Blackclaw;5737308]Yes, Satan is the father of sin and disorder and he is the god of this world.


Simple, FREEWILL only tyrants seek to control freewil....not God.

Johnny Skeptic

What evidence do you have that what you said is true? I recommend that you start a new thread at the General Religious Discussions Forum and post whatever evidence that you have that what you said is true.

Johnny Skeptic

Please start a new thread at the General Religious Discussions Forum and post whatever evidence you have that free will exists.

spamandham

Ignoring whether or not freewill actually exists for the moment, I have free will to pluck my eye out. Why don't I do it? ...because it is against my nature. From your perspective, God created me for that to be against my nature. There is no violation of free will involved, yet I am not going to pluck my eye out.

God could have created Satan with the nature to obey him. If that had been Satan's nature, he would never have disobeyed, just as those who go to heaven still have free will, yet no longer sin. God could also have limited Satan's power. I don't have the power to 'corrupt creation', so there's no fundamental reason God needed to give such vast power to Satan either.

There are any number of ways God could have prevented this mess without interfering in freewill.

sugarhitman

People change, down the line one day you may pluck out your eye, or slit your wrists, or perhaps jump off a cliff....people with freewill can change.


To create one with a nature to obey is not freewill and that is not what God wants.