jgreen44

But isn't "existing belief", in this case, simply, "what the Church has taught for many centuries"?

GakuseiDon

What do you think it means, then? What does "firstfruits" mean to someone who thinks that the end is coming?

ApostateAbe

Not necessarily. Think of the way ABE would be used generally in other fields. The existing beliefs and their implications would be things that we already believe or strongly expect from what we already believe. An ad hoc explanation, therefore, brings in a new proposition that wasn't anywhere to be seen before in our existing model or closely related to it.

maryhelena

It means that Paul is giving his spiritual Jesus construct a veneer of humanity, a veneer of historicity - why would he do this - see my earlier post No.#15

"Human nature is dualistic - we have physical bodies and an intellectual/spiritual capacity that allows us to to produce other worlds than the physical world that we inhabit. However, those theological or spiritual worlds can only be intellectual counterparts to what we know from the physical/material world - if they are to have any relevance at all. (putting flights of pure fantasy aside...)As Paul himself does with the Jerusalem above. So, if Paul is creating a spiritual construct of a Jesus Christ figure - then the follow on from that is a Jesus figure with a veneer of historicity, an assumed humanity. Paul is giving primary focus to the spiritual - he is working downwards not upwards. (As in the Word became flesh). The historical Jesus theory is working upwards - from the flesh to the spirit. Paul is working from the spirit to the assumed humanity - the veneer of humanity of a mythological spiritual creation. Paul can do nothing else - no magic tricks here. It is our evolutionary bodies that have enabled our intellectual/spiritual capacity. It cannot work the other way around. Our intellect, or spirituality, however great its achievements, is constrained by our physicality. Paul's spirituality does not need a human, a historical Jesus - but it does need a Jesus figure with a veneer of historicity, a veneer of humanity. Paul's spirituality has to take cognizances of our human nature - but that only requires that his spirituality assumes a humanity for his Jesus figure not demonstrates a humanity, not evidences a historical humanity."

Paul's spirituality, theology, philosophy - call it what you may - would be irrelevant, of no consequence to our human situation, if it did not reflect our human reality. Reflect - not demonstrate, not evidence, but a simply reflection, a veneer, of humanity. That is all theology/spirituality can do - reflect upon the human condition. What can be seen in Paul' spirituality, in his Jesus construct, is a reflection, a spiritual reflection, of our humanity, of our dual nature of body and spirit/intellect.

To equate Paul's spiritual ideas with the early history of Christianity is to find no difference between an apple and an orange - no difference between abstract ideas and historical realities.

GakuseiDon

Okay.

Toto

Since all of the dead will rise, it says nothing about when Jesus lived or died. The Jesus referred to could have been Joshua son of Nun.

jgreen44

Of course the official canon did not yet exist. But Paul must have heard stories and teachings, stories about the wondrous deeds and teachings of the recently-executed and risen-again one and only ever incarnation of God on Earth. Assuming Jesus of Nazareth existed, of course.

ApostateAbe

Yes, I agree with you there.

maryhelena

All Paul needed was his own imagination, the OT and a history book...

aa5874

According to the Church there was an EARLY tradition that the Pauline writers were AWARE of gLuke.

There is NO need to guess.

The EVIDENCE from the Church has been recorded.

The Church has handed EVIDENCE on a PLATTER.

"Church History" 3.4.8 The Church itself, based on Early tradition, has placed the Pauline writers AFTER the Fall of the Temple.

The Pauline writers wrote AFTER there were written sources of the Jesus stories even the author of Luke implied there were other sources before gLuke was written.