Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 02-20-2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I explained the Lazarus parable in the thread that Amaleq linked to. The word translated as "hell" above is "Hades" in the Greek. Hades was the common Greek translation for Sheol (The LXX translates Sheol as "Hades").......

It is all fantasy, but for sake of argument let's suspend disbelief for a moment.
Yes, you explained, and some one else will explain it a different way.

I know all about hell: hades, sheol, gehenna, and tarturus. I once lived next to a Jehovah's Witness and that was one of his favorite topics.

But a real fundamentailst has got to have hell fire! No wimp Jesus for hardshell Baptists. Preachers get to preaching and sinners get to repenting and the mouth of hell is yawning at the back of the church, you better hurry to the altar!

My favorite is sermon is Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
by Jonathan Edwards.

Now that's OLD TIMEY!

Jake

countjulian · 02-20-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Although this conception does reflect some belief in punishment in Sheol, the important thing to know is that Sheol WAS NOT ETERNAL. It was still believed that everyone in Sheol good and bad would be resurrected and judhed and that the bad people would eventually be annihilated.

I think you're confuting the eschatology of Revelations with that of the Gospels. They disagree on many accounts. IN the Gospels, there is not indication at all that Gehenna is anything other than eternal. Again, this is not taking Paul or Revelations into account.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-20-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

I think you're confuting the eschatology of Revelations with that of the Gospels. They disagree on many accounts. IN the Gospels, there is not indication at all that Gehenna is anything other than eternal. Again, this is not taking Paul or Revelations into account.

No confusion at all. I'm talking about 1st century Jewish eschatological beliefs regarding Gehenna and Sheol. The "Bosom of Abraham" has a specific meaning within those beliefs.

Once again, Gehenna was not an underworld or a place for an afterlife. Gehenna was the real, physical place on earth where bad people would be cast on the last day. There is nothin in the Gospels to indicate that the authors had any different belief about Gehenna than what was standard in Jewish eschatology.

Can you show anything in the Gospels to indicate that the authors though Gehenna had anything to do with an afterlife?

CalUWxBill · 02-20-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I explained the Lazarus parable in the thread that Amaleq linked to. The word translated as "hell" above is "Hades" in the Greek. Hades was the common Greek translation for Sheol (The LXX translates Sheol as "Hades").

The Lazarus parable reflects a late developing and Greek influenced Jewish conception that Sheol was divided into two parts- a "good" part, called "the Bosom of Abraham" and a "bad" part where unrighteous people would be temporarily punished before the resurrection and judgement of the dead. It was also imagined that the good and bad parts of Sheol were divided so that the bad people could never get to the good part.

Although this conception does reflect some belief in punishment in Sheol, the important thing to know is that Sheol WAS NOT ETERNAL. It was still believed that everyone in Sheol good and bad would be resurrected and judhed and that the bad people would eventually be annihilated.

I am thinking this is what some Catholics and Jews refer to as purgatory, although the Jewish version is a bit different?

countjulian · 02-20-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Once again, Gehenna was not an underworld or a place for an afterlife. Gehenna was the real, physical place on earth where bad people would be cast on the last day. There is nothin in the Gospels to indicate that the authors had any different belief about Gehenna than what was standard in Jewish eschatology.

Can you show anything in the Gospels to indicate that the authors though Gehenna had anything to do with an afterlife?

I believe you are basing these assumptions very much on Jewish psuedographical works of the time such as I Enoch (known, of course, to the author of James). But what did the common appelation "weeping and gnashing of teeth" mean when applied to Gehenna? Doesn't one get the idea that this will be going on for some time?

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-20-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

I believe you are basing these assumptions very much on Jewish psuedographical works of the time such as I Enoch (known, of course, to the author of James). But what did the common appelation "weeping and gnashing of teeth" mean when applied to Gehenna? Doesn't one get the idea that this will be going on for some time?

It just means that people are going to be sorry when they're lined up to be thrown into the pit. The weeping and gnashing isn't supposed to be eternal. Gehenna was a place for dead bodies, not for souls.

Sonny Preston · 02-27-2006, 08:58 PM

God sends sinners to Hell for punishment. It is no punishment to just put someone to sleep. Atheists believe that already and will never repent if they are told the worst thing that can happen to them is what they already believe.

Hell is eternal consious torment, and the smoke of it goes up forever. The prophet Daniel says, in chapter 12, that Hell is shame and everlasting contempt. Only a consious person can experience shame.

It is burning hot down their in the depths of the earth, scientists have proved this! Gods anger burns to the lowest hell. They lowered a microphone and recorded the screams of the damned.

Hell is a billion year sulfur bath with the Devil, and after that they just turn up the heat!

Your Friend,
Sonny Preston

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02-27-2006, 08:58 PM	#17
Sonny Preston New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Butts County Posts: 1	God sends sinners to Hell for punishment. It is no punishment to just put someone to sleep. Atheists believe that already and will never repent if they are told the worst thing that can happen to them is what they already believe. Hell is eternal consious torment, and the smoke of it goes up forever. The prophet Daniel says, in chapter 12, that Hell is shame and everlasting contempt. Only a consious person can experience shame. It is burning hot down their in the depths of the earth, scientists have proved this! Gods anger burns to the lowest hell. They lowered a microphone and recorded the screams of the damned. Hell is a billion year sulfur bath with the Devil, and after that they just turn up the heat! Your Friend, Sonny Preston

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