countjulian

Really?

Diogenes the Cynic

Yes, really. All the references referring to "fire" or translated as "hell" are references to Gehenna, not Hell. Jesus was talking about annihilation/death, not eternal conscious torment.

Before you ask, it's the flames that are "eternal" (better translated as "enduring, age-lasting"), not the punishment.

countjulian

So when he scarred people by threatening to throw them into a fiery Gehenna, what exactly was he threatening them with? Utter annihilation?

Diogenes the Cynic

He wasn't actually threatening to do anything personally (I would argue that Jesus never claimed to be God or that he would personally pass judgement on anyone). Gehenna, in ancient Jewish eschatology was a place of annihilation. It was believed that all people would be resurrected and judged. The good people got eternal life, the bad people got destroyed in Gehenna (which was and is a real valley in Jerusalem).

countjulian

Diogenes, I very well know what Gehenna was in the real world. But in the Christian's fantasy land, I do believe the authors of the Gospels intended eternal hellfire to be the threat to those not part of the fold.

Tell me, Diogenes, what do you think were Paul and the author of Revelation's opinions on the matter?

Diogenes the Cynic

The authors opf the Gospels did not attribute any sayings to Jesus which indicated any awareness of the Christian concept of hell as a place of eternal, conscious torment. Gehenna was not a netherworld or a place for an afterlife. It was a physical place on earth which was expected to be the eventual site for the annihilation of bad people. The eschatological views of the evangelists probably did indicate a belief that sinners or non-believers would be destroyed/killed/annihilated in a literal or figurative Gehenna but that's not the same as a belief in Christian Hell (a concept which developed later than the NT).
The same- that there would be a resurrection of the dead (Paul expressed that expectation explicitly), that there would be a judgement, that the good people would receive eternal life in Paradise and that the bad people would receive eternal death via annihilation in fire.

jakejonesiv

Hi Diogenes,
That is a rather bold statement, that "The authors opf the Gospels did not attribute any sayings to Jesus which indicated any awareness of the Christian concept of hell as a place of eternal, conscious torment ".

You may try to explain it away as a parable or some such, but the plain words of Luke 16 indicate conscious torment in the afterlife.

Luke Chapter 16
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

It seems that half the fun of being a Christian would disppear if they couldn't assign their opponents to never ending hell file!

Jake

mdarus

That is a very good summary of poular a mischaracterization of Christianity held by both believers and unbelievers. There is very little information about heaven and hell in the Bible. There is much more information about how to live this life. Your discussion here would be better served by evaluating the clear teachings of Jesus.

Amaleq13

To avoid a terminally derailing tangent, an earlier prolonged discussion of this subject in which you will find Diogenes the Cynic's argument is Hell: Merely a Temporary Annihilation?.

Diogenes the Cynic

I explained the Lazarus parable in the thread that Amaleq linked to. The word translated as "hell" above is "Hades" in the Greek. Hades was the common Greek translation for Sheol (The LXX translates Sheol as "Hades").

The Lazarus parable reflects a late developing and Greek influenced Jewish conception that Sheol was divided into two parts- a "good" part, called "the Bosom of Abraham" and a "bad" part where unrighteous people would be temporarily punished before the resurrection and judgement of the dead. It was also imagined that the good and bad parts of Sheol were divided so that the bad people could never get to the good part.

Although this conception does reflect some belief in punishment in Sheol, the important thing to know is that Sheol WAS NOT ETERNAL. It was still believed that everyone in Sheol good and bad would be resurrected and judhed and that the bad people would eventually be annihilated.