Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 02-16-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I was speaking about the OT. What got passed down as the Jewish OT was probably a fraction of what existed BCE . My Oxford bible commentray says Job was probably part of a larger lost set of wisdom/teaching materials.

As I understand it the JC of the NT would have been recognizable as a Jewish chrasmatic. In general form he would not have been unique.

That is what Galilee is all about. Holy rollers after rebirth wherein only the Jesus of Luke and John are presented as those who successfufly completed it and went to heaven, and 'his brother' James went to hell in Matthew and Mark to make its counterpart known, that necessarily must exist to make the opposites known.

I mean recognizable in form in his times as an evangelical Christian would be today.

The JC character minus the added supernatural trappings would not have been unique in his times. It was what Jewish prophets did in Jewish history, prophesize, often doom and gloom, and being treated badly for it.

There were numerous men claiming to be the messiah.

OK I understand now, and no doubt there was and always will be to bring release from elevated captivity.

steve_bnk · 02-16-2012, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

These are your theories and you are entitled to them.
Many theories change over time. Even quantum physics is beginning to share ideas with old fashioned mysticism of East and West as we find out that all matter is actually only energy......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

So... you accuse someone of operating on faith while you yourself make confident predictions about 2000 years in the future....

Right.

Anyway, the problem is threefold: (1) not only is there no evidence of Hebrews in Egypt or of any of the events outlined in Exodus, but (2) archaeology suggests that the population now known as Hebrew arose in Palestine and (3) the story as told in Exodus best fits the known situation of a later period, suggesting that is when it arose. It is not merely a question of dismissing the lack of evidence for (1), one must also deal with (2) and (3).

Vorkosigan

'...These are your theories and you are entitled to them.
Many theories change over time. Even quantum physics is beginning to share ideas with old fashioned mysticism of East and West as we find out that all matter is actually only energy...... '

Do you really want to go down ths yet another common theme here? This is usually under pseudoscience.

QM embracing mysticism? Bullshit.

Energy is a relative state of matter.

steve_bnk · 02-16-2012, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If it weren't for the influence of Jews in America and America's influence over Europe after WWII what evidence would there have been for the Holocaust?

The Europeans did not cover up. Israel came into existence.

Jewish themes in literature and movies turned the tide of American antisemetism.

Toto · 02-16-2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If it weren't for the influence of Jews in America and America's influence over Europe after WWII what evidence would there have been for the Holocaust?

Eyewitness evidence, archaeological evidence . .

Denying History (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Toto · 02-16-2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And I am sure that 2000 years from now there will be no evidence of human population in Toledo Ohio, Flagstaff Arizona, or any archeological proof of the Mexican American War or 9/11. So what? You can make fun of it all you want. That's your faith.

...

Why are you sure?? There is archaeological evidence of the human settlement of the Americas from thousands of years before that.

stephan huller · 02-16-2012, 07:28 PM

But the point is that the camps in Germany are now preserved and the evidence for whatever happened in antiquity was trampled over. The claim about written evidence for the Holocaust is like comparing apples and oranges given that the Holocaust occurred in an age of mass media. There are countless books on the subject, films, archives preserving the evidence. The Germans happen to be an obsessively meticulous people who preserve and record everything.

What would be the equivalent in antiquity? And the people of this forum deny the Exodus even though Manetho - a Egyptian that hated the Jews - confirms the existence of some historical event which was the basis of the Jewish religion. Why would Manetho and Apion and other pagans have taken this road if there was no evidence in Egyptian records of an Egyptian event marking the beginning of the Israelites? I am not saying the Bible narrative is literally true or that history necessarily resembles what appears in the Pentateuch. But to argue that it was all made up? Why did the Egyptians like Manetho acknowledge that something happened?

Duvduv · 02-16-2012, 07:45 PM

Well, there was human habitation in many places where no traces have been found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And I am sure that 2000 years from now there will be no evidence of human population in Toledo Ohio, Flagstaff Arizona, or any archeological proof of the Mexican American War or 9/11. So what? You can make fun of it all you want. That's your faith.

...

Why are you sure?? There is archaeological evidence of the human settlement of the Americas from thousands of years before that.

steve_bnk · 02-16-2012, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Well, there was human habitation in many places where no traces have been found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why are you sure?? There is archaeological evidence of the human settlement of the Americas from thousands of years before that.

Of course humans lived in placesd for which there may be no evidence.

So then you can claim humans lived on a spot on Earth at such a date without evidence and I can not dispooriove it, what does that get you?

Still doesn't serve as a proof exodus occured.

Duvduv · 02-16-2012, 08:23 PM

And archeology is not proof that the Exodus didn't happen. It can provide artifacts and suggestions but not proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Well, there was human habitation in many places where no traces have been found.

Of course humans lived in placesd for which there may be no evidence.

So then you can claim humans lived on a spot on Earth at such a date without evidence and I can not dispooriove it, what does that get you?

Still doesn't serve as a proof exodus occured.

steve_bnk · 02-16-2012, 08:51 PM

No one questions the ancient Jews existed. There are points of cotact and archealogical evidence.

To see how a rergion can emerge we can look at Scientology and Mormonism.

Both fabrications, yet grew from the founders over time to an entity with masses of true believers.

Consider how Ronald Reagan has taken on mythical proportions to the conservatives. It is not so hard to imagine a real Moses who over time took on bigger than life prportions meeting god and the rest.

Did Moses part the sea orf did a fleeling band of refugees escape Egyptian chariots in a marsh booging down the wheels?

The Discovery Channel did a show profiling a potential historical source for Noah and the flood.

What they proposed was an ancient trader who got caught in a storm with familiy and livestock on board barges. They fleshed out the story.

Flood stories are not unique to the OT, and the writers would undoubtedly be awre of a number of tales.

The overall point being we would expect the tradtions which were initially oral to be a mix of real events, cultural fabrications, and embellishmnet.

Gilgamesh -> Babaylon flood version -> Jews?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth
http://www.discovery-enterprise.com/...ahs-flood.html
Apparently the Babaylonian version has a round ark.

'...The Gilgamesh flood myth is a deluge story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Many scholars believe that the flood myth was added to Tablet XI in the "standard version" of the Gilgamesh Epic by an editor who utilized the flood story from the Epic of Atrahasis.[1] A short reference to the flood myth is also present in the much older Sumerian Gilgamesh poems, from which the later Babylonian versions drew much of their inspiration and subject matter...'

A useful cultural myth that is adapted by successive cultures.

Exodus was a usefulu unifying cultural myth. There may have been an historical event of some sort, maybe not even Jewish.

You can see the Christian culmination of the epic exodus myth in the movie Ten Commandments. Charleton Heston vs Yul Brenner was priceless and probasly embeded an image in generations of Americans..

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-16-2012, 07:28 PM	#66
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But the point is that the camps in Germany are now preserved and the evidence for whatever happened in antiquity was trampled over. The claim about written evidence for the Holocaust is like comparing apples and oranges given that the Holocaust occurred in an age of mass media. There are countless books on the subject, films, archives preserving the evidence. The Germans happen to be an obsessively meticulous people who preserve and record everything. What would be the equivalent in antiquity? And the people of this forum deny the Exodus even though Manetho - a Egyptian that hated the Jews - confirms the existence of some historical event which was the basis of the Jewish religion. Why would Manetho and Apion and other pagans have taken this road if there was no evidence in Egyptian records of an Egyptian event marking the beginning of the Israelites? I am not saying the Bible narrative is literally true or that history necessarily resembles what appears in the Pentateuch. But to argue that it was all made up? Why did the Egyptians like Manetho acknowledge that something happened?

02-16-2012, 08:51 PM	#70
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	No one questions the ancient Jews existed. There are points of cotact and archealogical evidence. To see how a rergion can emerge we can look at Scientology and Mormonism. Both fabrications, yet grew from the founders over time to an entity with masses of true believers. Consider how Ronald Reagan has taken on mythical proportions to the conservatives. It is not so hard to imagine a real Moses who over time took on bigger than life prportions meeting god and the rest. Did Moses part the sea orf did a fleeling band of refugees escape Egyptian chariots in a marsh booging down the wheels? The Discovery Channel did a show profiling a potential historical source for Noah and the flood. What they proposed was an ancient trader who got caught in a storm with familiy and livestock on board barges. They fleshed out the story. Flood stories are not unique to the OT, and the writers would undoubtedly be awre of a number of tales. The overall point being we would expect the tradtions which were initially oral to be a mix of real events, cultural fabrications, and embellishmnet. Gilgamesh -> Babaylon flood version -> Jews? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth http://www.discovery-enterprise.com/...ahs-flood.html Apparently the Babaylonian version has a round ark. '...The Gilgamesh flood myth is a deluge story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Many scholars believe that the flood myth was added to Tablet XI in the "standard version" of the Gilgamesh Epic by an editor who utilized the flood story from the Epic of Atrahasis.[1] A short reference to the flood myth is also present in the much older Sumerian Gilgamesh poems, from which the later Babylonian versions drew much of their inspiration and subject matter...' A useful cultural myth that is adapted by successive cultures. Exodus was a usefulu unifying cultural myth. There may have been an historical event of some sort, maybe not even Jewish. You can see the Christian culmination of the epic exodus myth in the movie Ten Commandments. Charleton Heston vs Yul Brenner was priceless and probasly embeded an image in generations of Americans..

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.