hjalti

When debating the historicity of Jesus many historicists point out to the passages in the pauline epistles that seem to talk about an earthly, historical Jesus. One of these is Rom 1:3, which says that Jesus was from the seed of David according to the flesh.

I think a good case can (and has) been made for this actually being a part of an interpolation. Our good discussion board-fellow Neil Godfrey has a very concise and neat summary of the case.

Here are some of the highlights. Verse 7 follows neatly after verse 1. Verses 2-6 interrupt otherwise normal greeting. The verses seem to teach adoptionism, contrary to Paul.

But please, check out Neil's summary, it's a short read.

So if Rom 1:3 is to be used when debating the historicity of Jesus, I think historicists should first have to explain to us why we shouldn't treat this verse as a part of a non-pauline interpolation. So here's your chance to convince us!

judge

As I am the one who keeps bringing this verse up recently I think I should explain again (sigh) that when I do I am not arguing for an historical Jesus .
What I have been arguing is that a mythical Jesus who existed in some non earthly realm as opposed to earth , cannot be derived from pauls writings.

aa5874

Well, you are arguing AGAINST DOHERTY.

But, in any event, there is no argument for the historical Jesus since not even HJ Scholars have presented any data to support HJ.

HJ is just ASSUMED.


The Pauline writings and the Pauline Jesus cannot be historically corroborated by credible historical sources of antiquity so the NT Jesus can be reasonably considered a MYTH until credible evidence of antiquity surfaces.

Now, it is extremely difficult to claim passages in the Pauline writings are interpolated without known authentic writings.

maryhelena

Sure, there is no other reality, some alternative, invisible 'reality', some spiritual reality, out there in space... Paul needed to have his two feet squarely on terra firma before he takes off on his intellectual wanderings. No reality, no human reality = no possibility of anything at all. A spiritual Adam without a bodily Adam = nonsense....

It's not out there - it's all in here - in the reality of our human nature, our dualistic nature - body and spirit, mind and matter. One man with a dualistic nature. First Adam is the physical flesh and blood body. The second Adam our spiritual nature. A spiritual, intellectual nature; a spiritual nature that only began to function at full speed once evolution in our physical bodies slowed down to the status quo of our present bodies.

[T2]Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version, ©2011)

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.[/T2]

Obviously, one can make up, create, any fantasy other world that tickles ones fancy (even some out there sub-lunar realm) but bottom line is that's it's all in the mind. Within our intellectual capacity and not 'out there' in some alternative, to human nature, reality.

GakuseiDon

Hjalti, let's confirm what you are saying: IF it is not interpolation, then it is an indication of a belief by Paul in an earthly Jesus. Is that correct?

aa5874

Are you trying to give the ERRONEOUS impression that earthly figures are NEVER considered MYTHS?

Please stop wasting time.

The MYTHS Romulus and Remus were BORN of a Woman and LIVED on earth. And when Romulus died Day turned to Night and it was also claimed that his body was "STOLEN" by the Senate. See Plutarch's "Romulus".

WITHOUT any credible historical sources of Antiquity then Jesus cannot be historicized but can be REASONABLY considered a MYTH.

Juststeve

Don:

That is exactly why it must be an interpolation. If it isn't it proves too much. Interpolation is the last refuge for the myther. There is no evidence for the historical Jesus because all the evidence that does exist is dismissed as interpolation.

Steve

aa5874

There is NO evidence that Jesus had a human father in the PAULINE writings. Jesus was God's OWN Son.

And again, the HJ argument is NOT merely about existence. After all Christians BELIEVED Marcion's PHANTOM did exist.

HJers are ATTEMPTING to show that Jesus was just an actual man.

gurugeorge

No, there is no evidence for a historical Jesus because there is no evidence for a historical Jesus.

There's a whole bunch of evidence for a myth, but precious little for a man.

"Born of the seed of David" is merely one of those little bits, and even then it's just as likely to be another "trope" of the myth - or a sort of literary requirement of the genre as suggested here, so that even if the text is talking ultimately and indirectly about someone who actually lived, we're not necessarily getting any biography about him from the text.

Juststeve

Guru:

Actually we do get biography. Paul thinks Jesus was born into the line of King David. That means that Paul regarded Jesus as having been born here on earth and to have become from a specific family. That's as biographical as if I asserted that my ancestors came over on the Mayflower, which they didn't.

Paul might have been right or wrong but unless it is an interpolation Paul didn't regard Jesus as mythical.

Steve