Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 05:22 PM

I'm not sure what the "however" is supposed to mean. Does the fact that they later became fearless gainsay my point in some way?

arnoldo · 04-20-2008, 05:32 PM

No, it just a statement that the disciples were afraid after their leader obviously failed to establish the Kingdom of Israel and instead was executed. I guess the disciples then made up a story about the resurrection in order to decieve us, right?

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I guess the disciples then made up a story about the resurrection in order to decieve us, right?

Why would you say that? I didn't say that.

arnoldo · 04-20-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I guess the disciples then made up a story about the resurrection in order to decieve us, right?

Why would you say that? I didn't say that.

I said that because you said the following. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

I think 12 scared guys wanting their dead beloved teacher to be more than he actually was is the simplest, most plausible explanation. <edit..brevity>

. . . Which implies the beloved teacher stayed dead and in fact was not resurrected.

aa5874 · 04-20-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

I thought the whole "Jesus of Nazareth didn't really exist and neither did the apostles" thing was passe at this point. *shrug*

I think 12 scared guys wanting their dead beloved teacher to be more than he actually was is the simplest, most plausible explanation. But that's just me.

Did you take into account any evidence or information about Jesus as presented by the NT, the early Church fathers and non-apologetic writers of antiquity?

There is simple no credible non-apologetic source that can verify or made mention of any 12 scared guys who had a dead beloved teacher.

There is no dead beloved teacher in the NT or written by the early Church fathers, according to these authors, the god/man is in heaven and he is coming back again.

Your simplest, most plausible explanation is not history, just faith-based speculation, similar to the belief of Christians, who it would seem, always think that their god/man is most plausible.

arnoldo · 04-20-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

<edit..brevity>
Your simplest, most plausible explanation is not history, just faith-based speculation, similar to the belief of Christians, who it would seem, always think that their god/man is most plausible.

Are early first century christians also a myth? And if so when did "christians" become a historical reality?

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

. . . Which implies the beloved teacher stayed dead and in fact was not resurrected.

Right, but I never said they did it "in order to deceive us." That's why I bolded that part of your statement and asked the question I did. Why would you think I think they did it in order to deceive us? I ascribe no such ulterior motives to them.

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Did you take into account any evidence or information about Jesus as presented by the NT, the early Church fathers and non-apologetic writers of antiquity?

I spent years studying such things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There is simple no credible non-apologetic source that can verify or made mention of any 12 scared guys who had a dead beloved teacher.

There is no dead beloved teacher in the NT or written by the early Church fathers, according to these authors, the god/man is in heaven and he is coming back again.

Your simplest, most plausible explanation is not history, just faith-based speculation, similar to the belief of Christians, who it would seem, always think that their god/man is most plausible.

If you want me to respond to this, please clean it up so that it's more intelligible than it currently is.

arnoldo · 04-20-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

. . . Which implies the beloved teacher stayed dead and in fact was not resurrected.

Right, but I never said they did it "in order to deceive us." That's why I bolded that part of your statement and asked the question I did. Why would you think I think they did it in order to deceive us? I ascribe no such ulterior motives to them.

I guess I got overly defensive when I implied you thought the disciples were "trying to deceive us." However your position is that the resurrection is not a historical reality, correct?

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 07:07 PM

Correct.

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04-20-2008, 05:22 PM	#851
TJ12 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: west Posts: 127	I'm not sure what the "however" is supposed to mean. Does the fact that they later became fearless gainsay my point in some way?

04-20-2008, 05:32 PM	#852
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	No, it just a statement that the disciples were afraid after their leader obviously failed to establish the Kingdom of Israel and instead was executed. I guess the disciples then made up a story about the resurrection in order to decieve us, right?

04-20-2008, 07:07 PM	#860
TJ12 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: west Posts: 127	Correct.

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