Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mat · 11-24-2009, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why are they thought to be the same thing?

Christ means annointed. What has that to do with leading and saving?

Has a confusion occurred because of an intermingling of cultures and ways of thinking?

Messiah is a classic warrior leader idea.

But the Greeks loved ideas and concepts - they were led by ideas - Logos, glass darkly.....

Syncretism again?

Both terms have the same definition initially its just that as the Christian church became more "goyified". The term Christos used in the LXX had a wider connotation or meaning attached it for the term began to use in a redemptive sense.

spamandham · 11-24-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

IOW the Christian Messiah was fully as much of a myth as the standard Messiah, only with some conceptual reversals.

Mark 10:31
But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first.

... the future messiah is rewritten as history?

Clivedurdle · 11-25-2009, 08:15 AM

Time reversal irony?

The cross then becomes a central axis around which all these games occur, like death becoming life instead of the normal life dying.

Is death to life also ironic?

Clivedurdle · 11-25-2009, 08:18 AM

One fine day in the middle of the night
Two dead men got up to fight
Back to back they faced each other
Drew their swords and shot each other.

Mark isn't a longer version of this genre is it?

Clivedurdle · 11-25-2009, 08:29 AM

Temporality in the Ancient World Ralph Rosen (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

Considering the topic of time in antiquity, juxtaposing cultures and societies, yields remarkable intersections, continuities, and discontinuities in the ways people have engaged with temporality.

One of the most persistent dichotomies we find across many premodern societies is that between cyclical and teleological time—time marching inexorably forward, toward a goal, and the markers of nature that seem repetitive, cyclical, and fundamentally stable. Over the millennia much ingenuity has been directed at these models. Specific examinations range from the construction of time and space in prehistory, Roman Britain, quantifications of time in Assyria and Babylonia, through aspects of time in classical India, the Hebrew Bible, China, Greece, and the Roman Empire.

With contributions by John C. Barrett (University of Sheffield), Marc Brettler (Brandeis University), Chris Gosden (Pitt Rivers Museum, Oxford), Astrid Möller (University of Freiburg), David Pankenier (Lehigh University), Alex Purves (University of California, Los Angeles), Eleanor Robson (University of Cambridge), Ludo Rocher (University of Pennsylvania), and Michele Renee Salzman (University of California, Riverside)

The New Testament has a clear model of time about the past, the now of the story of Jesus and the future - Revelation, second coming. The idea of prophecy is central - saying what will be.

Ursula le Guin Always Coming Home (or via: amazon.co.uk) writes an archaeology of the future (reviewers seem to have missed the point!)

We can't be looking at an attempt at time travel writing are we?

show_no_mercy · 11-25-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

We can't be looking at an attempt at time travel writing are we?

There are quite a few stories in the Hebrew bible where contemporary events are retold as past events and are thus "predictions". The book of Daniel is a good example.

semiopen · 11-26-2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

We can't be looking at an attempt at time travel writing are we?

There are quite a few stories in the Hebrew bible where contemporary events are retold as past events and are thus "predictions". The book of Daniel is a good example.

In another forum, this fascinating thing came up:

Quote:

Exodus 23:28
I will send the Tzirah before you, which will drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you.

Deuteronmy 7:20
Moreover Yahweh your God will send the Tzirah among them, until those who are left, and hide themselves, perish from before you.

Joshua 24:12
I sent the Tzirah before you, which drove them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; not with your sword, nor with your bow.

Tzirah is translated as hornet(s) in most Christian translations, Jew's are less sure about this and sometimes say plague.

This is a curious example of a prophecy after the event where the meaning is far from clear. I would guess that the writer of Joshua (which was undoubtedly post exilic) didn't know what Tzirah meant. Moreover the prophecy after the event probably never happened.

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11-25-2009, 08:15 AM	#23
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Time reversal irony? The cross then becomes a central axis around which all these games occur, like death becoming life instead of the normal life dying. Is death to life also ironic?

11-25-2009, 08:18 AM	#24
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	One fine day in the middle of the night Two dead men got up to fight Back to back they faced each other Drew their swords and shot each other. Mark isn't a longer version of this genre is it?

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