Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fromdownunder · 05-02-2006, 06:21 AM

I suppose there are very few around that still actually believe that Moses wrote the Penteneuch, but on the off chance that there are any lurkers left who accept this, I offer the following passages. Please note the passage on bold in particular:

Deuteronomy 34 (NIV)

5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said.
6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.
8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

Or, for anybody else, if he did not write these few verses (and what follows), on what grounds do you accept that he wrote the rest of it.

Or any of it for that matter?

Norm

rickP · 05-02-2006, 06:33 AM

You silly atheist. God told him when he was going to die, so he already knew that and could write it before his death. "To this day" is just added to confuse the weak of faith.

Kosh · 05-02-2006, 07:08 AM

"But if he was dying, he wouldn't write 'Arrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh', he would just say it!"

Dean Anderson · 05-02-2006, 07:09 AM

The response I usually get from Christians is...

1) Jesus said that Moses wrote the Torah.

2) If Jesus said it, then it's good enough for me. No matter what evidence/argument you have, you will never convince me that you know more than Jesus.

David B · 05-02-2006, 10:24 AM

Thanks, Norm. I'm in conversation with someone on another thread who claims that Moses wrote Genesis, and this is relevant.

I'll paste a link to this thread into it.

David B

Apikorus · 05-02-2006, 10:34 AM

The master has said: "Joshua wrote the book which bears his name and the last eight verses of the Pentateuch. This statement is in agreement with the authority who says that eight verses in the Torah were written by Joshua, as it has been taught: So Moses the servant of the Lord died there. Now is it possible that Moses being dead could have written the words, 'Moses died there'? The truth is, however, that up to this point Moses wrote, from this point Joshua wrote. This is the opinion of Rabbi Judah, or, according to others, of Rabbi Nehemiah." [But] Rabbi Shimon said to him: "Can the scroll of the law be short of one word? ... No; what we must say is that up to this point the Holy One, blessed be He, dictated and Moses repeated and wrote, and from this point God dictated and Moses wrote with tears." (B. Baba Batra 15a)

The rabbis considered your question over 1,500 years ago, and they came up with a solution.

Apikorus' Bible Theorem:

Comparisons with modern archaeological data excepted, any difficulty you can identify in the Hebrew Bible has already been considered and explicated by the rabbis.

Remark on the theorem:

You might not always agree with their analysis.

hjalti · 05-02-2006, 01:00 PM

What did the Rabbis say about this?

Quote:

Numbers 12:3

But the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth.

Did the very meek Moses write this?

Apikorus · 05-02-2006, 01:28 PM

I'll check the miqraot gedolot sometime, but is this really a problem? The story is that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch (or torah as we Jooz say) as if he were taking dictation from God. If God told Moses to write that he (Moses) was humble, or that he was going to die, then Moses, humble servant that he was, did exactly so.

The fact that there are chronological difficulties with the Torah has been known for thousands of years. Their resolution is again at least as old as the Talmud: ein mukdam um'uchar batorah = "there is no early and late in the Torah" (B. Pesachim 7a).

Really there are far more interesting and difficult problems than those presented by these little zingers.

Atheos · 05-02-2006, 01:54 PM

Agreed. When I was taking Critical Intro to the Old Testament in a conservative christian college these arguments (the "wrote his own death" and "meekest man" bit) were presented as if they were the best that secular critics had to offer. They were easily explained.

My professor went so far as to suggest that "meekness" was considered a weakness, not something to be proud of in that culture.

He also pointed out the obvious rationalization that while "Moses" might have written most of the content of the pentateuch the last few verses could have been added by anyone as a wrap-up.

When I first realized I was an atheist, and before considering that Moses might have been entirely mythical I had decided he was the single greatest conman of all time.

-Atheos

05-02-2006, 06:21 AM	#1
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	Moses and the Penteteuch. Who Wrote It? I suppose there are very few around that still actually believe that Moses wrote the Penteneuch, but on the off chance that there are any lurkers left who accept this, I offer the following passages. Please note the passage on bold in particular: Deuteronomy 34 (NIV) 5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over. Or, for anybody else, if he did not write these few verses (and what follows), on what grounds do you accept that he wrote the rest of it. Or any of it for that matter? Norm

05-02-2006, 10:34 AM	#6
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	The master has said: "Joshua wrote the book which bears his name and the last eight verses of the Pentateuch. This statement is in agreement with the authority who says that eight verses in the Torah were written by Joshua, as it has been taught: So Moses the servant of the Lord died there. Now is it possible that Moses being dead could have written the words, 'Moses died there'? The truth is, however, that up to this point Moses wrote, from this point Joshua wrote. This is the opinion of Rabbi Judah, or, according to others, of Rabbi Nehemiah." [But] Rabbi Shimon said to him: "Can the scroll of the law be short of one word? ... No; what we must say is that up to this point the Holy One, blessed be He, dictated and Moses repeated and wrote, and from this point God dictated and Moses wrote with tears." (B. Baba Batra 15a) The rabbis considered your question over 1,500 years ago, and they came up with a solution. Apikorus' Bible Theorem: Comparisons with modern archaeological data excepted, any difficulty you can identify in the Hebrew Bible has already been considered and explicated by the rabbis. Remark on the theorem: You might not always agree with their analysis.

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05-02-2006, 06:33 AM	#2
rickP Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 1,079	You silly atheist. God told him when he was going to die, so he already knew that and could write it before his death. "To this day" is just added to confuse the weak of faith.

05-02-2006, 07:08 AM	#3
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	"But if he was dying, he wouldn't write 'Arrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh', he would just say it!"

05-02-2006, 07:09 AM	#4
Dean Anderson Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 6,947	The response I usually get from Christians is... 1) Jesus said that Moses wrote the Torah. 2) If Jesus said it, then it's good enough for me. No matter what evidence/argument you have, you will never convince me that you know more than Jesus.

05-02-2006, 10:24 AM	#5
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	Thanks, Norm. I'm in conversation with someone on another thread who claims that Moses wrote Genesis, and this is relevant. I'll paste a link to this thread into it. David B

05-02-2006, 01:28 PM	#8
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	I'll check the miqraot gedolot sometime, but is this really a problem? The story is that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch (or torah as we Jooz say) as if he were taking dictation from God. If God told Moses to write that he (Moses) was humble, or that he was going to die, then Moses, humble servant that he was, did exactly so. The fact that there are chronological difficulties with the Torah has been known for thousands of years. Their resolution is again at least as old as the Talmud: ein mukdam um'uchar batorah = "there is no early and late in the Torah" (B. Pesachim 7a). Really there are far more interesting and difficult problems than those presented by these little zingers.

05-02-2006, 01:54 PM	#9
Atheos Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heart of the Bible Belt Posts: 5,807	Agreed. When I was taking Critical Intro to the Old Testament in a conservative christian college these arguments (the "wrote his own death" and "meekest man" bit) were presented as if they were the best that secular critics had to offer. They were easily explained. My professor went so far as to suggest that "meekness" was considered a weakness, not something to be proud of in that culture. He also pointed out the obvious rationalization that while "Moses" might have written most of the content of the pentateuch the last few verses could have been added by anyone as a wrap-up. When I first realized I was an atheist, and before considering that Moses might have been entirely mythical I had decided he was the single greatest conman of all time. -Atheos

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