mickw

Everyone knows how Jesus admonished his apostles to take up their ". . .cross and follow me. . .".

He said this, though, before he was crucified, so what sense would it have made to them? I guess we understand the phrase now as meaning to accept your burden, your lot in life, etc.; i.e., a metaphor.

But can it have been a metaphor back then, before Jesus was crucified?

jgibson000

Martin Hengel has argued that it was a recruiting slogan used by the Zealots (see his Jesus and the Revolutionaries and his The Zealots). And even before Jesus' crucifixion, the idea of taking up a cross (i.e., being willing risk/to pay the price of one's life for refusing to conform to "the ways of the [Roman] world" would hardly have been incomprehensible to Jews, especially in the light of what happened after Herod's death and when Archelaus was deposed and the poll tax was instituted

Jeffrey Gibson

Apologist

Christ's crucifixion transcends time.

jgibson000

Exegetical and doctrinal rubbish -- and hardly an answer to the question posed or something that fits with what Jesus goes on to say about the shape of cross bearing and the necessity for anyone who would follow him of taking up the cross, or what anyone hearing the words about taking up the cross would or could have heard or understood them to be saying.

Jeffrey Gibson

mickw

Thanks. Hengel I am not familiar with, but will check it out if you think he is a good source.

Would the apostles have understood the reference to be literal, as in they should be willing to die for the cause or their convictions or whatever?

If so, I believe one of the passages says something about "taking up your cross daily" which would seem to be more figurative or metaphorical.

jgibson000

He is -- as is any major critical commentary on Mathew, Mark, or Luke. Do you know what the major one's are?

Why not given how much of a reality and possible fate crucifixion was in Palestine under Roman occupation and especially if one takes Jesus teaching about the nature of crossbearing that follows the saying as historical?

Yes, in Luke's version of the saying -- Lk 9:23.

Not at all. It simply emphasizes that that the commitment has constantly to be renewed.

On the meaning of cross bearing, and how it does not mean the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to, see also John Howard Yoder, The Politics of Jesus.

Jeffrey Gibson

xaxxat

Or you can let Simon the Cyrenian carry it for you...

Malachi151

Well, given that the gospels were written well after the Jesus story had already been around for quite some time, and since we don't have any copies of the gospels before the 3rd or 4th century, the most likely thing is that these cross references were simply written in because by the time the gospels were written, in current form, the story of his death was known.

This "statement by Jesus" would only be remarkable if it were actually a life recording from prior to "his" "crucifixion". However, since the whole story was made up by fiction writers, its really of no consequence. It's simple forshadowing, like when anyone from Homer to Hemengway does it.

Apologist

The fact that the cross transcends time answers the question. When Christ refers to crucifixion doesn't matter. Christ's sacrifice is everlasting. It transcends time. Our sufferings and our sacrifices are made valuable insofar as we unite ours to His.

Loomis

You are making a great point.

Roger Pearse enjoys discussing Mithras.

It’s safe and warm there.

If Roger can show that the name Mithras was an unusual word during the first century, then that means that Roger deserves respect; should be treated as an equal, is capable of rational thought, and is not superstitious.

If Roger can show that the name Mithras was an unusual word during the first century, then that means that the point you are making here (about the cross) is moot, because you are simply being controlled by Satan - who btw, has seven heads.

:devil1: :devil1: :devil1: :devil1: :devil1: :devil1: :devil1:

All the best,

Loomis