Malachi151

Well, for example, until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found the oldest Hebrew texts of the Hebrew Bible were from the 10th century, so while that text was claimed to be from around 1400 BC, the oldest version of it that we had was from about 900 AD. Given that this was the case, it was impossible to say for sure if what we had from 900 had really been originally written in 1400 BC.

As of now, the oldest texts that we have (of the Hebrew Bible) are the Dead Sea Scrolls from the 1st century BC, so that still puts us about 1,300 year out from the supposed date of origin, and scholars today believe that the Pentateuch was really not written until around the 8th century.

The problem that we get into with transmitted texts, as opposed to actually uncovered ones, is that while they may claim to be from some given time in the past we really have no idea if they are really from that time, or if they were different originally and have since been changed.

All of our Sumerian and I believe Babylonian texts, by the way, have been archeologically uncovered, so we know what they said and when. We don't really know what the Genesis story said before the 1st century BC.

rob117

There are ways of estimating dates for texts, such as the form of language used, historical accuracy (Herodutus is highly accurate for up to about a century before his lifetime [two centuries when dealing with Greece] and then starts to mess up), comparison with other manuscripts (there is already significant textual variation between different manuscripts of the same text in the DSS), ideology, etc. This is how we know Ezekiel and Jeremiah are genuine exilic works while Daniel is not.

mountainman

My contribution would be to include review of
The Indus Valley Seals.

Best wishes,



Pete

Malachi151

This is true to a degree. Many times we only have translations of texts in other languages, or, when many centuries have passed, at least into different dialects.

While we can detect sometimes when elements have been inserted, we still can't really determine how old the ideas in a text really are, or how they were originally presented, and this is especially true with the fewer copies of texts that we have.

Roger Pearse

There are probably formal definitions, but here is my understanding. Most of the paperwork in the world, then as now, consists of a single copy or one or two copies -- a letter home saying "please send my spare underpants"; a receipt for a tax payment; a certficate of insanity or having sacrificed to the eternal gods. These are known as documentary texts, and nearly everything that comes out of the ground in digs and finds is of this kind. The same would be true if someone went through our litter bins, and for the same reasons. The papyri recovered at Oxyrhynchus came from the town dump, you see. There might be bits of a novel, of course; but not usually.

Literary texts are those written for circulation in larger numbers, for copying and dissemination. The process of dissemination differs down the centuries, but still goes on today. These includes novels, textbooks, all that sort of thing. Theses are not found in the author's copy, almost by definition.

The literary texts, tho, are the ones which tell us what is happening.

For example, it doesn't help us much to have a certificate that Sextus Aurelius sacrificed to the immortal gods in 251 AD, unless you happen to know that a persecution of the Christians was raging at that date, and that certificates of sacrifice were required from citizens. These pieces of information come from ancient histories.

This is why we know so much less about Sumer than we do about Rome and Greece. We only have documentary stuff from Sumer (give or take the odd short epic). But we can read the letters of Pliny the Younger, talking about dinner parties, making jokes, recounting the enormities of the dodgy lawyer Regulus, and we can live in the time. This is very hard to do otherwise.

In short the literary texts are the interesting ones!

The documentary texts are part of archaeology, in a way.

The oldest documentary finds must be Sumerian, I'm sure; clay tablets recovered from excavations at places like Ur. Documentary finds will be co-extensive with writing.

The oldest literary manuscripts... hmm. There was a technology change in late antiquity, from the papyrus roll (which is fragile) to the parchment book (which is eternal). We have a dozen or two (I think) physical books of the 4th-5th centuries extant. (Indeed I have handled one -- the Bodleian copy of Jerome's Chronicle written around 20 years after he died, ca. 450). Most manuscripts are copies of the 9th century or later, a fair number of the 12th, and a lot in the 15th (just before printing was invented). We do have papyrus books from Egypt containing literary texts of the Graeco-Roman period, recovered from places like Nag Hammadi, and Toura. The texts in these are 2-3rd century onwards, extant usually in 4-5th century copies. Fragments of literary material -- Homer, etc -- come out of the ground in Egypt also. The Herculaneum rolls contain works by Philodemus, and are 1st century. There is the Derveni papyrus, also.

I think the question is simply too broad; it would have to be broken down by category to give a meaningful answer.

A lot of this stuff is covered in Reynolds and Wilson, Scribes and scholars.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

It depends on the translation. Texts done into Syriac in the 5th century onwards are very faithful. If you do some translation, you will quickly find that you naturally tend to do it a word at a time, which produces tortured English, but thus reproduces the original.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Vorkosigan

...you mean, about 600 years after printing was invented. Gutenberg was working with an idea already old in the west, printed playing cards were used in the west with certainty as early as 1377. Neato fact: Gutenberg's Bible illustrations were used to print playing card backs after Gutenberg ran out of money, according to Robert Temple's book on Chinese tech. The Muslims had printed stuff before the West, but didn't use the tech much.

Does the question refer only to the Near East and West? Complete or incomplete? There are lots of old extant texts from India, China, and elsewhere that go back to Jesus' day or even earlier. Heck, the earliest written characters on paper date from ~110 CE. Older objects with writing are known.

Vorkosigan

Malachi151

Err... no, we have the Derveni papyrus - ~350 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derveni_papyrus

Clivedurdle

http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/ir...newgrange.html

This is 5,500 years old and I thought it had writing - runes? on it.

jakejonesiv

Roger,

Great post!

I have one question, could some of the Sumerian Tablets dealing with religious themes predate the earliest Egyptian writings?

Thanks!

Jake