Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
11-29-2006, 06:29 AM | #11 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 701
|
Quote:
His ASU bio page says that he's currently working on a book on the Quote:
|
||
11-29-2006, 06:57 AM | #12 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
|
Quote:
You don't need a "real person" to inspire the story of Jesus, the inspiration for the story was already there. |
|
11-29-2006, 09:49 AM | #13 | |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 10,955
|
Quote:
If the gospel authors were trying to construct a story from Hebrew Scripture, they did a pretty bad job, as many Skeptics have noted in trying to debunk messianic passages. I mean, the OT refers to a tree, not a cross, so if you're just making the story up, why not use a tree instead of a cross, instead of having to go through the rigmarole of claiming a cross is like a tree. If you're starting from scratch, you could have Pilate run out of crosses and have Jesus crucified on a tree. Most of the so-called messianic prophesies are like that. They fit, kind of, but are off. It looks like the Christian interpreters are "stretching" to make the prophesy fits the facts. This shouldn't be under your thesis. The fit should be perfect. |
|
11-29-2006, 10:20 AM | #14 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
|
Quote:
Jesus is crucified because he is a sacrifice FOR THE ROMANS, not the Jews, hence the reason that all the apostles don't get it, Pilate tries to save him, the Jews demand his death, and in the end it is a Roman Soldier that says "Surely this man was the Son of God". I think that "Mark" was a diaspora Jew who viewed the triumph of the Romans over the Jews as evidence that the Romans had the favor of God. Also, there was already a tradition that claimed Jesus Christ was crucified as part of the Christ mystery religion. |
|
11-29-2006, 11:52 AM | #15 | |
Contributor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
|
Quote:
|
|
11-29-2006, 04:15 PM | #16 | |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 10,955
|
Quote:
That's not an explanation at all. The messianic prophesies in the OT don't mention a cross, they mention a tree. So if you're making the story up from scratch, you would want to use a tree to make the prophesy fit. You can do that simply by, e.g., having Pilate run out of crosses due to a bad market that year. Or a strike by the cross makers union. Or a hundred other explanations. As fiction the field is open. But instead the author went with a cross and then had to "fit" the prophesy to a cross. But if he's making up the story, he'd "fit" the story to the prophesy, not the other way round. So try again. |
|
11-29-2006, 04:17 PM | #17 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 10,955
|
Well, the gospel writers sure didn't and that the narratives in question. Maliki is claiming they constructed a story around Hebrew messianic texts. But as it turned out, the story doesn't fit the prophesies -- which wouldn't happen if the narrative was constructed from them.
|
11-29-2006, 04:45 PM | #18 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
|
Quote:
Feel free to present your "tree hanging" references that you think would have been a better fit. Paul was already talking about crucifixions, and whoever wrote Hebrews was taking about a lot of bloodshed, and you don't get bloodshed from hanging or stoning, so I suspect that that had something to do with it. I'm not even sure what you are arguing here. you can't deny that the crucifixion scene copies from several texts, especially Psalm 22. |
|
11-29-2006, 04:50 PM | #19 | |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 10,955
|
Quote:
The prophesy doesn't fit and the narrative has to be "massaged" to make it fit. But you claim the narrative came from the prophesy. So your claim seems to have been rebutted. And this is just one of dozens of examples where there's a bad "fit." |
|
11-29-2006, 06:52 PM | #20 | |
Contributor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
|
Quote:
Irenaeus in 'Against Heresies' and Eusebius in 'The Proof' believed that the Christ was based on prophecies in the OT, and the Gospels, as represented in the NT of the Christian Bible, has not been verified as being the true version of Christianity. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|