Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 12-12-2006, 06:36 PM

I often see claims about how there are various other dying and rising gods, or how Mithras or Dionysus has rituals similar to the Last Supper, or similar such claims, but I never have been able to find any primary texts for this, or even primary images.

Does anyone have any *solid* information on this?

Peter Kirby · 12-12-2006, 06:47 PM

If you can read against the bias, Tektonics probably has the largest amount of real information on the intarweb about this.

--
Peter Kirby

Malachi151 · 12-12-2006, 07:11 PM

Not directly related, but I had a good laugh at this:

Quote:

Their point about most pagans having a holiday at the Spring Equinox raises the question of whether Resurrection Day, and by extension the Passover holiday, was itself one of these pagan festivals originally. Skeptics might want to say so, but there's a point to consider. The largest danger in the ancient world for the Israelites was idolatry. Now consider this situation: Everyone else around them was celebrating at the Spring Equinox, doing all the usual orgiastic things. Now as a parallel, if you are in a business, and your rival business is having a big sale on April 10, how might you get something out of that and also deflect your rival's success? The answer: Hold an even bigger sale the same day. And that's the "why" of Passover being scheduled on the Spring Equinox (and by this I also mean that God intended it that way when He timed the plagues of Egypt). The Israelites could hardly occupy themselves with joining in with the pagans if they had their own festival to celebrate.

Toto · 12-12-2006, 07:21 PM

Most skeptics rely on the statements by Justin Martyr - the "anticipatory plagiarism" arguments.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...stapology.html

start at "ORIGIN OF HEATHEN MYTHOLOGY."

mountainman · 12-12-2006, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I often see claims about how there are various other dying and rising gods, or how Mithras or Dionysus has rituals similar to the Last Supper, or similar such claims, but I never have been able to find any primary texts for this, or even primary images.

Does anyone have any *solid* information on this?

Try getting a hold of the three part Loeb Series
on the emperor Julian.

Pete

Peter Kirby · 12-12-2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Try getting a hold of the three part Loeb Series
on the emperor Julian.

I have it. Which cites do you have in mind?

--
Peter Kirby

mountainman · 12-13-2006, 02:21 AM

Julian's references to Dionysus ....

Seventh Oration,
Book II (Loeb Series)
"To the Cynic Heracleios"

Subtitled ---------
"How a Cynic should behave, and whether
it is proper for him to compose myths."

About half way through this Julian provides a background
to and an account of the legend of Dionysus. Starting on
about p.109 thru 117.

Note that there are no direct references to "the last
supper business", rather these are just references to
the tradition and the myth of Dionysus, by Julian.

Elsewhere, he mentions Mithras, but not as prolonged a
discussion as the above, but I dont have the reference
handy.

Pete

12-12-2006, 06:36 PM	#1
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Concrete examples of other Hellenistic rites I often see claims about how there are various other dying and rising gods, or how Mithras or Dionysus has rituals similar to the Last Supper, or similar such claims, but I never have been able to find any primary texts for this, or even primary images. Does anyone have any solid information on this?

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12-12-2006, 06:47 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	If you can read against the bias, Tektonics probably has the largest amount of real information on the intarweb about this. -- Peter Kirby

12-12-2006, 07:21 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Most skeptics rely on the statements by Justin Martyr - the "anticipatory plagiarism" arguments. http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...stapology.html start at "ORIGIN OF HEATHEN MYTHOLOGY."

12-13-2006, 02:21 AM	#7
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Julian's references to Dionysus .... Seventh Oration, Book II (Loeb Series) "To the Cynic Heracleios" Subtitled --------- "How a Cynic should behave, and whether it is proper for him to compose myths." About half way through this Julian provides a background to and an account of the legend of Dionysus. Starting on about p.109 thru 117. Note that there are no direct references to "the last supper business", rather these are just references to the tradition and the myth of Dionysus, by Julian. Elsewhere, he mentions Mithras, but not as prolonged a discussion as the above, but I dont have the reference handy. Pete

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