Net2004

"WHAT DOES THE TEXT SAY EXACTLY ABOUT THE HOUSE IN BETHLEHEM?

In MATT 2:11:

" On coming to THE HOUSE ( the OIKA ), they ( NOTE: the magi ) saw the child with his mother Mary..."

That is all. I disagree that the phrase " the house " obligatorily means " THEIR house " and that it proves Matthew was saying Bethlehem was where Mary and Joseph lived. This is the only part the word OIKA appears in the whole narrative. It could go either way, but to say it is 100% proof is wrong.

DOES LUKE ACTUALLY SAY JESUS WAS BORN IN A CAVE OR STABLE?

Nothing in the text says that either. The Greek word used in Luke 2:7 is KATALUMA, and it can mean ROOM and also INN. The reason many have thought of a stable is because of the word MANGER ( a feeding container for animals ), but in 1st century Palestine it has been shown that in many houses certain animals slept in the same house of the family: the animals on the GROUND FLOOR and the family on the SECOND floor. On the ground floor of many homes they have found what looks a manger.

THE LUKE TEXT: ( Young's Literal Translation )

LUKE 2:7: " and she brought forth her son, the first-born, and wrapped him up, and laid him down in the manger, because there was not for them a place in the KATALUMA. "

The question here is: since the word can mean both inn and room, is it referring to a room provided by a RELATIVE of Mary or Joseph or one where they had to PAY?

THE WORDS OIKA AND KATALUMA AGAIN

They are found in LUKE 22:7-12 / MARK 14:14

LUKE 22:7-12: " Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, " Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover. " " Where do you want us to prepare for it? " they asked.

He replied, " As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to THE OIKA ( house ) that he enters, and say to the owner of THE OIKA, 'The Teacher asks: Where is the KATALUMA ( room ), where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' He will show you a large upper KATALUMA, all furnished. Make preparations there. "

How accurate is this?

i just realised that mat 2:21-22 kills the response to the first question in the quote above.

19 And Herod having died, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream doth appear to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, `Having risen, take the child and his mother, and be going to the land of Israel, for they have died -- those seeking the life of the child.' 21 And he, having risen, took the child and his mother, and came to the land of Israel, 22 and having heard that Archelaus doth reign over Judea instead of Herod his father, he was afraid to go thither, and having been divinely warned in a dream, he withdrew to the parts of Galilee, 23 and coming, he dwelt in a city named Nazareth

Ben C Smith

I think you are correct. The house does not have to mean their house. But, if the two years that Herod gives in this gospel as the cut-off date has any meaning to it (and 2.16 explicitly says that the two years were based on the information that the magi gave him), what have Mary and Joseph been doing for the nearly two years since Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

Correct again, though I am not completely certain what no room for them in the guestroom would mean in Luke 2.7. If it is a guestroom in the home of a relative, then it kind of comes in out of the blue, does it not?

Ben.

Aquila Pacis

In the Gospel of Judas Jesus is not in the garden, but enters a kataluma, where he is captured by the scribes. In English it's translated as "guest room", in German as "Obergemach" ("high chamber", "elevated chamber"), in French as "salle d'hôte" ("guest chamber"), with the alternative "salle de séjour" ("living room"/"sitting room") in the footnotes. The German "Obergemach" could be connected to the above-mentioned fact that the living quarters were sometimes on the second floor.