Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Avatar · 04-30-2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Well, I don't think the devil really intends utmost obedience! Didn't the devil break the commandment "do not kill"?

God sure did any number of times. Entire cities and civilizations were wiped out either at God's command or at his behest. Innocent and guilty (ie, not "chosen" or not "proper" worshippers) alike.

John A. Broussard · 04-30-2005, 11:18 PM

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Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Well, I don't think the devil really intends utmost obedience! Didn't the devil break the commandment "do not kill"?

How can you completely ignore the fact that god kills over and over again, that he delights in smiting the guilty and innocent alike?

And why do you continue to avoid explaining what you mean by "ultimate responsibility?

lee_merrill · 05-01-2005, 12:51 PM

Hi everyone,

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Lee: I don't expect that trying to get someone to curse God is an indication of loyalty to God, though!

Wallener: Sure it is - if G-d says to do it. Not doing it would have been the sign of disobediance.

But it was Job who was being tested to try (the devil's intent) to get him to curse God, the devil wasn't being ordered to curse God, though he was kind of trying to get this done in an indirect way.

Quote:

Lee: Didn't the devil break the commandment "do not kill"?

Avatar: God sure did any number of times. Entire cities and civilizations were wiped out either at God's command or at his behest.

Would you rather live on earth forever? In an endless life, every single bad thing that could possibly happen to a person would happen to every person. I'm thankful life on earth is not endless…

Job 7:16 I would not live forever.

Yet God doesn't delight in ending lives, death is a penalty, for sin. Which he bore.

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John: And why do you continue to avoid explaining what you mean by "ultimate responsibility?"

God is indeed responsible for the outcome of everything, that is what I mean, look down to the ultimate result, and God is responsible for that.

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard · 05-01-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

God is indeed responsible for the outcome of everything, that is what I mean, look down to the ultimate result, and God is responsible for that.

But earlier you said:

"God has ultimate responsibility here, yes, I agree, and Job does as well"

Do you see now why I have so much difficulty even understanding your arguments, nevermind answering them?

Here you say Job has ultimate responsibility, but now you say god is ultimately responsible for everything.

Please, please try to be consistent.

lee_merrill · 05-02-2005, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

But earlier you said:

"God has ultimate responsibility here, yes, I agree, and Job does as well"

Here you say Job has ultimate responsibility, but now you say god is ultimately responsible for everything.

Sorry, I meant "Job says God has ultimate responsibility, too":

Job 2:10 "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard · 05-02-2005, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Sorry, I meant "Job says God has ultimate responsibility, too":

Job 2:10 "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"

Regards,
Lee

Nice to have that cleared up.

Now let's move to Job's sons. Seems to me his whole family was killed off as part of test god was putting Job through.

Do you have any problem with that?

Charles Bailey · 05-04-2005, 07:38 AM

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Originally Posted by macintologist

Credit to spl.

WARNING:
This post contains explicit description of violence which may be upsetting to some readers.

A quote from the Christian Bible (also in the Hebrew Bible):

In the following story, you see through the eyes of Moses. You are Moses.

It is a joyous day for you. The war against the Midianites is finished, the Lord God has blessed you, and you have been victorious. You have taken all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and taken the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods, as the Lord commanded you.

Two of your soldiers come towards you, between them there is a young Midianite woman. They grasp her shoulders and clothes tightly to prevent her from escaping. In her arms, she protectively holds her small baby. Seeing this, you tell your soldiers to hold her, and you stride towards her. As you reach for her baby, she struggles to free herself, but your soldiers hold her well.

The baby cries as you grapple with him, trying to pull him away from his mother. Suddenly, you give the mother a heavy slap across the face. In the moment when she is stunned, you pull her baby away from her. Her voice thick with emotion, she says, "Please don't take my baby! PLEASE! Please I beg you!"

Without answering her, you carry the crying baby away, but order your soldiers to bring the mother. After a short walk, you reach a rocky patch of ground that is littered with jagged beige stones of medium size. Using both hands, you raise the baby, still crying, above your head.

The mother screams frantically, "NOOOO!!! PLEASE DON'T KILL MY BABY! I beg you! I will do anything for you, anything! PLEASE!!"

You ignore her pleas. With all of your strength, you hurl the baby towards the stones. The mother covers her face with her hands, unable to look at the imminent death of her baby. There is a loud cracking sound as the baby's skull hits a rock and breaks, along with other fragile bones. However the baby does not die instantaneously. His arms and legs slowly twitch as his blood starts to seep out of his broken body and stain the rocks and the ground with bright redness. After some time, his body ceases twitching, and he is dead.

The mothers legs have collapsed, and she has fallen to the ground. Tears are streaming down her face making dirty streaks, and her body is shuddering with uncontrollable sobs.

You look at what you have done, and you feel happy. You smile at your soldiers. You feel honored to be serving the almighty God. You turn to face your people, and you say unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

You gaze with approval as a group of your men kick the legs out from underneath a Midianite girl of about 14 or 15 years of age, causing her to fall to the hard ground. She screams in terror and kicks frantically, but your men hold her arms and legs, stretching her out on the ground. One of your men pulls up her dress and examines her hymen, poking and prodding with dirty fingers splattered with dried blood from earlier activities, in an attempt to determine whether she is a virgin and thus whether she will be killed or kept alive for the pleasure of the men.

Satisfied that she is a virgin, your men then proceed to throw dice to determine who will have sex with her first. You nod, and praise and thank the Lord for all that He has given you today.

What a heart warming story! Brings a tear to the eye doesn't it? John, you must have been inspired when you wrote this. Wouldn't you just love to see this depicted on the silver screen? My only problem with it is that you failed to quote John 3:16 at the end!

<all Sarcasm aside> In the words of Robert Ingersoll: "Could a demon have done worse?"

Charles Bailey · 05-04-2005, 08:14 AM

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The first question I would ask in reply is "Does God have the prerogative to determine the time and manner of a person's death?" The question here seems to essentially involve the question of whether God ever has a right to decree this

And the first question I would ask you is just how a person would ever be able to determine what the rights of a God are? And since the story depicted by John Broussard involves the interactions of human beings with each other, how does the reader of a book of antiquity (such as the Pentateuch) make a distinction between the mere actions of passionate human beings and the commands of an invisible God? Would we accept actions similar to those found in the story we are discussing now if they were committed today under the auspices of an alleged divine command? And why is it that biblicists seem so ready to accept a lower standard of morality from their loving God than they are typically willing to accept from their fellow man? Do you suppose anyone here would ever find you making excuses for this type of behavior had these crimes against humanity been committed by members of your own family?

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2 Kings 5:7 As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, "Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life?"

This is a rhetorical question asked by a mere human being like you and me. What's this supposed to prove? And what empirical evidence do we have that anyone in the history of humanity has ever been killed and brought back to life? What evidence do we have that anyone was ever killed for the express purpose of being brought back to life?

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Then a second question can be asked, "Does God involve people in carrying out his decisions?"

And my response would be: How would a person ever find the capacity within themselves to be able to distinguish the difference between cases where another person is carrying out the will of an invisible God from cases where another person is acting upon their own passions and desires? Can human beings be permitted to do anything so long as they claim to be fulfilling the will of God? If not, why not?

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We do see this in the Bible, with Abraham, and with the Israelites, now carrying out Hitler's orders was a war crime, but we must ask and answer the first question, before we can conclude that carrying out a judgment of death prescribed by God must be similar.

Hitler belived he was acting in accord with God's will. This is common knowledge. How can we determine whether his beliefs were true or false when we are able to find stories in the "Word of God" which depict similar actions as meeting not only with God's approval but his divine will?

Humans simply have no way of making a determination that a judgment of death has been prescribed by some supernatural agency. Therefore, there can never be a case where we ought to find ourselves accepting such actions, approving of them, making excuses for them, etc.

Charles Bailey · 05-04-2005, 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Thanks.

I'll add that to my collection of explanations for what happened. Theists aren't going to like it, however, as you know. If they accept it, it means there's going to be the problem of sorting out when god was passing orders, and when they were coming from somewhere (someone) else.

Seems to me there's a passage in the bible where Satan orders a census, while another passage says it was god who gave out the command. I'm not going to bother to look it up unless someone insists I'm wrong.

If I'm right, then there does seem to already be confusion in the scriptures about who, exactly, is running the show.

The scriptures you are referring to are found in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21. There is a great article written by Farrell Till about the atrocity associated with that census called "What Have These Sheep Done?"

The article can be found here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../994front.html

Charles Bailey · 05-04-2005, 08:37 AM

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Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Not willing to withhold his son, this must have been in God's presence, so that would be somewhat different, with God being present in a real way:

Genesis 22:16 because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son...

And expecting his son would not, even then, remain dead, for God had promised that Isaac would be his heir...

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

Regards,
Lee

Exactly how does the thought of bringing someone back from the dead make the act of their murder any less deplorable? That's like saying that it would be okay for me to put out a cigarrette in your eye each day so long as I could restore your sight to its original condition afterwards, or something like that. Do we define murder as only those cases in which a life is taken and cannot be restored? (as if there were any other type)

you said...

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And the real boundary is not so much between actions, but between motives.

Would your sentiments above apply to the current situation? If Abraham literally intended to kill his child, but didn't, does this mean he is really a murderer at heart? What would Jesus have to say about it? Perhaps we should summon the so-called "beattitudes?"

By the way, a motive never hurt anyone, though actions are responsible for every injury both physical and emotional. Your contention is anti-human at best.

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