Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-30-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

The topic of the debate will be "Did Jesus Rise From The Dead?" even though I originally insisted we first debate "Are the Gospels Historically Reliable?" for the simple reason that you can't honestly debate the former until you've debated (and in fact settled) the latter. Craig simply refused to debate that topic, claiming it was too big to cover in an oral debate, which I found odd since it's a necessary component of the resurrection debate, and if a necessary component of a resurrection debate is too big to debate, the resurrection itself must be too big to debate. So for a while we considered instead debating the Moral Argument for God, since we were at an impasse otherwise. But we eventually negotiated a compromise: I would concede to debate the resurrection if I can go on record with (and criticize) his reasons for refusing to debate the reliability of the Gospels.

I'll quote his exact last words on the matter:

I propose the straightforward "Did Jesus Rise from the Dead?" The reason I prefer this topic to the historical reliability of the Gospels is because (i) a case for the historicity of Jesus' resurrection does not depend on the Gospels' being generally reliable, and (ii) being narrower in scope, the topic is more manageable in an hour and a half's debate.

I find both (i) and (ii) to be patently false, in fact outright illogical. But if he wants to be illogical, that works for me. ....

The debate is sponsored by the Philosophy Club, and will be recorded (although a video or transcript will not be immediately available.)

One of the comments refers to a scholar who tried to prove the Resurrection using the Epistles. But the historical reliability of the Epistles is an even more knotty question that then gospels, as we know.

thedistillers · 01-30-2009, 03:32 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me Craig wants to avoid the issue of whether or not the Bible contains at least one error. By focusing on the historical reliability of the Gospels, he would have no choice but to make his own position clear. If the discussion is limited to the resurrection, all Craig needs to do is to present his four facts and claim the resurrection is the best explanation; no need to address the biblical innerancy issue.

I agree with Carrier that the ressurection is not narrower in scope! If the Gospels are not reliable, then what "facts" does Craig have? You have to establish first if the Gospels are reliable if you want to use some facts to reach a conclusion.

I hope Carrier will be well-prepared for this. It is long overdue that a skeptic demolishes Craig's sophistry.

Switch89 · 01-30-2009, 04:30 PM

When are Craig and Carrier going to debate "Are Moral Facts Evidence of God?"

Edit: Nevermind, I read the post and it looks like it isn't planned anytime soon, if at all.

Toto · 02-17-2009, 04:59 PM

More events with Richard Carrier, in Southern California, Sunday Mar 8 in Ventura and Monday Mar 9 in LaVerne (east of downtown LA, close to Claremont)

Quote:

Sunday March 8, 4pm

Richard Carrier Ph.D. "Did Jesus Even Exist?"

The Ventura Chapter of AU will host nationally renowned author and historian Richard Carrier, who will give a talk entitled "Did Jesus Even Exist?" summarising the arguments in his upcoming book On the Historicity of Jesus which examines the historical evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus. This talk is free and open to the public. EP Foster Library, Topping Room, 651 E Main Street, Ventura, CA 93001.

This event will be followed by a cocktail fundraiser party in honor of Dr. Carrier at the home of Victoria and Brian Parra in Oxnard, CA. Write membership@atheistsunited.org to RSVP and get directions. 7pm. Donations will be accepted at the door.

Dr. Carrier will give the same talk the next night, Monday, March 9, at the University of LaVerne, Founders Hall Auditorium, 1950 3rd St. in La Verne, CA, 7pm. This talk is also free and open to the public.

Noted on Carrier's blog

Toto · 03-09-2009, 01:31 PM

Carrier was brilliant in Ventura, as usual. Someone made a video, but we'll have to see how it turns out.

Switch89 · 03-09-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Carrier was brilliant in Ventura, as usual. Someone made a video, but we'll have to see how it turns out.

Great! I can't wait to see how it turns out!!

Toto · 03-19-2009, 11:28 AM

Debate on Mar 18 news story

Quote:

Dr. Craig argued that multiple and independent sources attest to the fact that Jesus was buried and rose from a tomb and later appeared to a select group of people.

Dr. Carrier said the sources he cites were either hallucinating or simply spun a work of fiction loaded with irony to convey a tale.

Camio · 03-19-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Dr. Craig said during a rebuttal that Dr. Carrier “needs to learn to read the lines before he can read between the lines,” which got big laughs from the polite crowd, which seemed to side with Dr. Craig throughout the night.

Wow, what a powerful argument. Was the rest in the same league? Is this the kind of "rational debate" this Dr. Craig is used to? :banghead:

Steven Carr · 03-19-2009, 01:54 PM

'Dr. Craig argued that multiple and independent sources attest to the fact that Jesus was buried and rose from a tomb and later appeared to a select group of people.'

SO if 4 Scientologists say the same thing, that makes it true?

Switch89 · 03-19-2009, 04:02 PM

Does anyone know where the video/audio/transcript of the Mar. 8th speech or the Craig-Carrier debate is?

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01-30-2009, 03:32 PM	#2
thedistillers Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 586	Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me Craig wants to avoid the issue of whether or not the Bible contains at least one error. By focusing on the historical reliability of the Gospels, he would have no choice but to make his own position clear. If the discussion is limited to the resurrection, all Craig needs to do is to present his four facts and claim the resurrection is the best explanation; no need to address the biblical innerancy issue. I agree with Carrier that the ressurection is not narrower in scope! If the Gospels are not reliable, then what "facts" does Craig have? You have to establish first if the Gospels are reliable if you want to use some facts to reach a conclusion. I hope Carrier will be well-prepared for this. It is long overdue that a skeptic demolishes Craig's sophistry.

01-30-2009, 04:30 PM	#3
Switch89 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 453	When are Craig and Carrier going to debate "Are Moral Facts Evidence of God?" Edit: Nevermind, I read the post and it looks like it isn't planned anytime soon, if at all.

03-09-2009, 01:31 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Carrier was brilliant in Ventura, as usual. Someone made a video, but we'll have to see how it turns out.

03-19-2009, 01:54 PM	#9
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	'Dr. Craig argued that multiple and independent sources attest to the fact that Jesus was buried and rose from a tomb and later appeared to a select group of people.' SO if 4 Scientologists say the same thing, that makes it true?

03-19-2009, 04:02 PM	#10
Switch89 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 453	Does anyone know where the video/audio/transcript of the Mar. 8th speech or the Craig-Carrier debate is?

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