Originally Posted by Half-Life

I am looking forward to the excuses that I would have given just a few weeks ago.

Originally Posted by Jayrok

7They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

Originally Posted by Jayrok

It's simple... the reason for Jesus running out the money changers from the temple and procuring the colt/donkey is because these elements of the gospel are taken from the old testament. If you sat with pen and paper with the aim of constructing a story of a person (who may or may not be historical, it doesn't matter for your purposes), and this person was to be the personification of Israel of the OT scriptures, you would include elements of the OT into his story. Elements like cursing a fig tree that produces no fruit, wandering in the desert for 40 years (or days in Jesus' case), Riding as a king on the foal of a donkey, etc.. Symbolism in scripture brought to life in a story.

Two interesting things about both the Temple incident and the donkey is how different gospel authors interpreted them. For example, the author of the gospel of John has Jesus "clear" the Temple early in his ministry, well before his "triumphant entry into Jerusalem", while Matthew has Jesus "clear" the Temple after his triumphant final entry at the end of his ministry. I actually had someone on another board tell me Jesus cleansed the Temple twice in his career.

With the donkey, Matthew has Jesus sit on a donkey and its colt. Jesus instructs his boys to bring the donkey and her colt... Matthew 21:6-7 -- 6The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. 7They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

It's funny to imagine Jesus riding into town straddling two donkeys... but Matthew was big on trying to fulfill prophecy.

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Well If god knows all, he can not have rage because rage is a human emotion that humans have because we are not "perfect beings."

A perfect being has no reason or desire to have a fit of rage. By definition, a perfect being lacks nothing so it can't be mad or upset, because getting mad, upset, etc implies imperfection.

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Well If god knows all, he can not have rage because rage is a human emotion that humans have because we are not "perfect beings."

A perfect being has no reason or desire to have a fit of rage. By definition, a perfect being lacks nothing so it can't be mad or upset, because getting mad, upset, etc implies imperfection.

Originally Posted by ThinkingMan

I'm not disagreeing with you, but these passages are funny in a Samuel-L-Jackson sort of way.
Exodus 4:14
Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you.

Numbers 25:3
So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them.

Numbers 25:4
The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."

Numbers 32:10
The LORD's anger was aroused that day and he swore this oath:

Numbers 32:13
The LORD's anger burned against Israel and he made them wander in the desert forty years, until the whole generation of those who had done evil in his sight was gone.

Deuteronomy 7:4
for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.

Deuteronomy 9:18
Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger.

Deuteronomy 11:17
Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good land the LORD is giving you.

Deuteronomy 29:27
Therefore the LORD's anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book.

Joshua 7:1
[ Achan's Sin ] But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the devoted things [ The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD, often by totally destroying them; also in verses 11, 12, 13 and 15. ] ; Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, [ See Septuagint and 1 Chron. 2:6; Hebrew Zabdi ; also in verses 17 and 18. ] the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the LORD's anger burned against Israel.

Joshua 23:16
If you violate the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the LORD's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you."

2 Samuel 6:7
The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.

2 Kings 13:3
So the LORD's anger burned against Israel, and for a long time he kept them under the power of Hazael king of Aram and Ben-Hadad his son.

2 Kings 22:13
"Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD's anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us."

2 Kings 24:20
It was because of the LORD's anger that all this happened to Jerusalem and Judah, and in the end he thrust them from his presence. [ The Fall of Jerusalem ] Now Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.

1 Chronicles 13:10
The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God.

2 Chronicles 12:12
Because Rehoboam humbled himself, the LORD's anger turned from him, and he was not totally destroyed. Indeed, there was some good in Judah.

2 Chronicles 28:11
Now listen to me! Send back your fellow countrymen you have taken as prisoners, for the LORD's fierce anger rests on you."

2 Chronicles 34:21
"Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the remnant in Israel and Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD's anger that is poured out on us because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written in this book."

Isaiah 5:25
Therefore the LORD's anger burns against his people; his hand is raised and he strikes them down. The mountains shake, and the dead bodies are like refuse in the streets. Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised.

Jeremiah 12:13
They will sow wheat but reap thorns; they will wear themselves out but gain nothing. So bear the shame of your harvest because of the LORD's fierce anger."

Jeremiah 25:38
Like a lion he will leave his lair, and their land will become desolate because of the sword [ Some Hebrew manuscripts and Septuagint (see also Jer. 46:16 and 50:16 most Hebrew manuscripts anger ] of the oppressor and because of the LORD's fierce anger.

Jeremiah 50:13
Because of the LORD's anger she will not be inhabited but will be completely desolate. All who pass Babylon will be horrified and scoff because of all her wounds.

Jeremiah 52:3
It was because of the LORD's anger that all this happened to Jerusalem and Judah, and in the end he thrust them from his presence. Now Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.

Lamentations 2:22
"As you summon to a feast day, so you summoned against me terrors on every side. In the day of the LORD's anger no one escaped or survived; those I cared for and reared, my enemy has destroyed."

Zephaniah 2:2
before the appointed time arrives and that day sweeps on like chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD comes upon you, before the day of the LORD's wrath comes upon you.

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.

Originally Posted by Half-Life

He could've just hovered above the donkeys as they walked through. This would have made for more converts right off the bat before any preaching.

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Fit of rage in temple:

They came to Jerusalem, and on entering the temple area he began to drive out those selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
16
He did not permit anyone to carry anything through the temple area.
17
Then he taught them saying, "Is it not written: 'My house shall be called a house of prayerfor all peoples'? But you have made it a den of thieves."


This is how the "most holy and perfect God" acts? Like a child? Couldn't God have calmly talked with them about why it's wrong and simply brought the tables elsewhere? or couldn't he have said to them, "You silly mortals. God is not confined to a house. God is everywhere!"

Why did the "perfect God" overturn tables in rage?

Donkey stealing:

When they drew near to Jerusalem, to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples
2
and said to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately on entering it, you will find a colt tethered on which no one has ever sat. Untie it and bring it here.
3
If anyone should say to you, 'Why are you doing this?' reply, 'The Master has need of it and will send it back here at once.'"
4
So they went off and found a colt tethered at a gate outside on the street, and they untied it.
5
Some of the bystanders said to them, "What are you doing, untying the colt?"
6
They answered them just as Jesus had told them to, and they permitted them to do it.
7
So they brought the colt to Jesus and put their cloaks over it. And he sat on it.
8
Many people spread their cloaks on the road, and others spread leafy branches that they had cut from the fields.
9
Those preceding him as well as those following kept crying out: "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
10
Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is to come! Hosanna in the highest!"

Notice in verse 3, Jesus says they will bring it back. Funny how there is no mention of the disciples returning it anywhere. Does this make Jesus a thief?

I know many people might say, "Just because it's not written down doesn't mean they didn't return it!"

If this is true, why did the all-knowing God mention he was going to return it? The idea that he somehow "forgot" to mention returning the donkey in his "infallible word" seems ridiculous. Also, why couldn't jesus just snap his fingers and bring a donkey into existence in front of him? Why did he have to steal someone else's donkey? Surely this would've made more believers seeing a donkey come into existence from nothing.


I seriously can not believe jesus stole someone's donkey when he is God Himself. What cruelty on his part.

I am looking forward to the excuses that I would have given just a few weeks ago.

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Wow in less than a few weeks you went from defending to ridiculing Jesus. <edit>

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Well If god knows all, he can not have rage because rage is a human emotion that humans have because we are not "perfect beings."

A perfect being has no reason or desire to have a fit of rage. By definition, a perfect being lacks nothing so it can't be mad or upset, because getting mad, upset, etc implies imperfection.