Clivedurdle

I wonder if we have in the gospel's a reasonably complete description of what happened to it.

It starts very interestingly as part seed of David and part seed of the Holy Ghost. It show's early promise and difference - the magi, avoiding Herod, the priest's in the Temple being astounded by his learning.

It morphs further with the incident of his Baptism when the Holy Spirit does something - he is able to carry out miracles, survive in the wilderness, walk on water, turn water into wine, come up with parables and the sermon on the mount and give decisions.

It becomes even more interesting in being able to die and then resurrect, causing other dead people to rise, earthquakes, renting of the veil darkness at noon etc.

After death it morphs further - walks through walls, not recognised, but can eat and have a hand in his side. Later it becomes like Elijah and can go up to heaven.

I am not being sarcastic here - but surely we do have a reasonably complete description of what spiritual flesh can achieve?

EssEff

In the first place, David is an ancestor of Joseph, not Mary, so right there the story is crap if Jesus was the adopted son of Joseph and the "biological" son of the holy spook.

You missed one thing, at least for Catholic theology: his flesh enters wafers and then turns back into real blood and guts after the wafers are eaten. Yummy.

Clivedurdle

and I forgot - it reappears at every Mass as well!

I wanted this to be a serious discussion because this may be game set and match in favour of the mythicist position - the gospels and early church - possibly huge chunks of current xianity - accept the above and therefore by definition are not and never have been talking of a historical Jesus - all they ever believed in was a god doing miracles in Judea.

Headache

I say it matches up pretty well with a myth.

Cege

Do you mean what "happened to it" in the sense of what kind of flesh it would be if it were half-human (Mary's contribution) and half/God (spiritual contribution? Or do you mean what happened to the flesh when it was resurrected?

I don't understand if you're asking if there was a fleshly corpse left behind at resurrection into a spiritual form or about a transformation from human flesh into spirit? Or something else?

Minimalist

They will never see it that way, Clive.

aa5874

This is the reason I longer need proof, I only need a description. You have just described a legend and a myth and I accept it as such.

And Origen confirmed this mythical being, ..."Not only did he possess two forms, one in which he was seen by all, another in which he was transformed before his disciples, but that he used to appear to every individual in a form corresponding to his worth..

Jesus had a body indeed, a mythical one.

Clivedurdle

I actually mean it literally!:devil1:



We have a description of spiritual flesh being born, getting added ingredients, showing its powers, getting deaded and resurrected, showing more morphing abilities and dissappearing into the sky.

John 20 describes succinctly some particular transitional fossil stages!

(And I work on the premise that any human flesh with 0.0000000000recurring1 spiritual flesh is by definition spiritual, let alone half - and catholic beliefs mean the human half is very suspicious if Mary is sinless!)

Baalazel

I really, really like to quote Scripture for this sort of thing but lately some have confused quoting scripture with believing it. For future reference I do not believe the Bible but do believe that as most of the debates here begin in some way with the Bible it is best to let it cut its' own throat.

Here then is where the Bible comes down on the fleshly part of Jesus. It appears to still maintain its' fleshly constitution.

Mark 16:19 "So after the Lord had spoken to them, he was received up into heaven, and sat at the right hand of God."

Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, as they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

Christians here will no doubt make the argument that as rising bodily into heaven is not possible Jesus must have possessed a non-physical body. As the text gives no such indication it is their task, as always, to explain it away.

Baal

Chili

Yes, and that is why they crucified Jesus and rightfully so. After all, he was a Jew and a sinner as such and definately not the son of God (for Christ sake, (sic), who needed to Jesus to die and be set free). So yes, the God identity came through Mary and that is why she was betrothed to Joseph. The HS is not exactly the cause because only Gabriel is sufficient (for good reason) who is send upon the greatness of the Lord serving as God's subordinate.

No, the wafer is the bread of Christ after transubstantiation takes place. Until then it remains bread and the transubstantiation is by proxy while under a state of grace received as baptized Catholic after the 'unworthiness' preamble is said and that goes something like this: "Lord I am not worthy to receive but only say 'the word' and I shall be healed." This being a weekly ramble it is obvious that 'the word' has not been received and therefore the worthiness is by proxy. Hence bread is bread and it becomes the body of Christ when we are declared worthy and comprehend our own worthiness. IOW, the transubstantiation takes place in our mind.