Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 03-23-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

And it is even augmented to a greater magnitude that Justin Martyr, up to the midlle of the 2nd century, was not aware of these authors when one considers that in all of his extant writings, the words "Paul" or "Epistles to the Churches" cannot be found anywhere in them.

You have yet to provide an explanation of why you would expect Justin to mention these things in any of the writings we have attributed to him.

aa5874 · 03-23-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

And it is even augmented to a greater magnitude that Justin Martyr, up to the midlle of the 2nd century, was not aware of these authors when one considers that in all of his extant writings, the words "Paul" or "Epistles to the Churches" cannot be found anywhere in them.

You have yet to provide an explanation of why you would expect Justin to mention these things in any of the writings we have attributed to him.

Justin Martyr mentioned passages that appear to come from the NT, so I would expect him to give the names of the authors just like Origen.

Origen and Justin Martyr quoted passages that appear to come from the OT and both did mention the names of the authors. Justin mentioned by name passages from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel and others, yet he failed to mention the names of the authors of the Gospels or the Epistles.

One explanation is that Justin Martyer did not know the names of the authors of the gospels or the Epistles

spamandham · 03-23-2008, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Origen and Justin Martyr quoted passages that appear to come from the OT and both did mention the names of the authors.

In Justin's Dialogue with Trypho (the Jew), it makes a lot of sense to quote the Jewish scriptures by name, since that would be authoritative to Trypho. Quoting strictly Christian sources by name would not carry the same weight, and could even be counter productive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Justin mentioned by name passages from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel and others, yet he failed to mention the names of the authors of the Gospels or the Epistles.

...and if I were in the same boat I'd probably have done the same thing, even if I was aware of some of the 'authors', for the reason suggested above. I see no weight at all from Justin's failure to quote NT books by name. It wouldn't make sense for him to do so in any of the writings we have that are attributed to him.

aa5874 · 03-23-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Origen and Justin Martyr quoted passages that appear to come from the OT and both did mention the names of the authors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

In Justin's Dialogue with Trypho (the Jew), it makes a lot of sense to quote the Jewish scriptures by name, since that would be authoritative to Trypho. Quoting strictly Christian sources by name would not carry the same weight, and could even be counter productive.

But, Justin Martyr did quote the name of the Christian sources. [B]They were called, according to Justin, MEMOIRS OF THE APOSTLES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Justin mentioned by name passages from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel and others, yet he failed to mention the names of the authors of the Gospels or the Epistles.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

..and if I were in the same boat I'd probably have done the same thing, even if I was aware of some of the 'authors', for the reason suggested above. I see no weight at all from Justin's failure to quote NT books by name. It wouldn't make sense for him to do so in any of the writings we have that are attributed to him.

Again, Justin Martyr's name for the writings is "Memoirs of the Apostles", and it made sense for Justin to give the name of the writings so that Trypho the Jew could identify, search for or make reference to these "Memoirs of the Apostles".

And if I were Justin, I would give precise details of any information about Jesus, the disciples and Paul to Trypho in order to convince him. That would make sense.

Justin gave no information whatsoever about Paul, the author of the epistles to the Churches, he never even mentioned the existence of any epistles, or the names of the authors of the Gospels in any of his extant writings, this is highly indicative that he did not know any of the authors by name up to the middle of the 2nd century.

"Dialogue with Trypho"

Quote:

....and since we find it recorded in Memoirs of the Apostles that He is the Son of God....

......they spake in mockery the words which are recorded in the Memoirs of the Apostles: He said he was the Son of God......

....He kept silence, and chose to return no answer to any in the presence of Pilate, as has been declared in the Memoirs of the Apostles in order that what is recorded by Isaiah might have efficacious fruit....

And it was not only to Trypho that Justin used the words Memoirs of the Apostles, in "First Apology", Justin used these very words as the source for information about Jesus to " the whole people of the Romans"

First Apology

Quote:

To the Emperor Titus Aeius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Caesar, and the adopted son of Pius and lover of learning and to the sacred Senate, with the whole people of the Romans, I, Justin..........present this address and petition in behalf of these all who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them.

First Apology

Quote:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in the cities or in the country gather together in one place and the memoirs of the apostles or the writing of the prophets are read, as long as time permits....

aa5874 · 03-25-2008, 08:48 AM

This layout is a correction to post #569, to show that Justin Martyr did not mention the name of the authors of the Gospels, the epistles to the Churhes, Paul, Timothy or Barnabas, quite unlike Origen.

AGAINST CELSUS (c 200 CE) DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO (c 150CE)
Matthew ............. ......... ........ no named author .......... ...........
Mark ........ ............... ............ no named author ........ ...........
Luke ....... ........... .......... ........ no named author ........ ...........
John ...... ........... .......... ........ no named author ........ ............
Acts of the Apostles ....... ....... .. no mention of Acts .... ...........
Epistle to Romans ........ ....... ..... no mention of Epistle ... ..........
Epistles to Corinthians ...... ....... . no mention of Epistles ... .......
Epistle to Galations .......... ....... . no mention of Epistle ..... .......
Epistle to Ephesians ......... ........ no mention of Epistle ..... ......
Epistle to Philippians ......... ...... .. no mention of Epistle .... ......
Epistle to Colossians ........ ........ no mention of Epistle .... ........
Epistles to Thessalonians ... ..... . . . .no mention of Epistle .... ........
Epistle to Timothy ...... ....... ..... no mention of Epistle .... .......
Epistle to Barnabas ...... ..... .... no mention of Epistle ..... ........

Apocalypse of John ....... ....... Revelation of John ......... .......

PAUL ......... ....... ..... ... no mention of PAUL ......
PETER ...... ....... ...... .. .... mention of PETER.....

aa5874 · 03-26-2008, 12:45 PM

To show the similarities of passages quoted from the "memoirs of the Apostles" by Justin Martyr to gMatthew, I have made excerpts from First Apology 15.

Justin Martyr First Apology 15 (FA 15)... He uttered such sentiments as these:

Quote:

"Whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart before God."

Now, Matthew 5.28, But I say unto you, that whosoever lookerth on a woman to lust after hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Quote:

FA 15, And, If thy right eye offend thee, cut it out, for it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of heaven with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into everlasting fire."

Matthew 18.9, And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Quote:

FA 15, ...And whosoever shall marry her that is divorced from another husband committeth adultery....

Matthew 5.32..... and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery..

Quote:

*FA 15, And, There are some who have been made eunuchs of men, and some who were born eunuchs, and some who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake; but all cannot receive this saying.

Matthew 19.11-12,...All men cannot recieve this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Quote:

FA 15, ...I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance..

Matthew 9.13...for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Quote:

FA 15, ..If ye love them that love you, what new thing do ye? for even fornicators do this...

Matthew 5.46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Quote:

FA 15... But I say unto you, Pray for your enemies, and love them that hate you , and bless them that curse you, and pray for them that despitefully use you.

Matthew 5.44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

There are many many more passages quoted from the "memoirs of the Apostles" that appear to be from the Synoptics, yet Justin never referred to the authors of these memoirs by name anywhere in his extant writings.

spamandham · 03-26-2008, 09:07 PM

ok aa5874, I have to admit, that with these last few posts, you've actually begun to make a good point.

That said, the job then is to figure out whether there is a historical root in any of these characters, or if they really were invented from whole cloth.

Have you considered the similarities between Paul and Simon Magus?

aa5874 · 03-27-2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

ok aa5874, I have to admit, that with these last few posts, you've actually begun to make a good point.

That said, the job then is to figure out whether there is a historical root in any of these characters, or if they really were invented from whole cloth.

Have you considered the similarities between Paul and Simon Magus?

I am not really interested in the similarities between characters that appear to be fictitious or anecdotal. I am really intrigued by Justin Martyr's writings since they appear to indicate that the names of the authors of the memoirs of the apostles, Acts of the Apostles, the names of the authors of the Epistles were all fabricated after Justin's writings.

Excerpts from "memoirs of the Apostles" from "First Apology" 15

Quote:

FA15.. Give to him that asketh, and from him that would borrow turn not away.."

Matthew 5.42, Give to him that asketh, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away,

Quote:

FA 15....Lay not up for yourselves treasure upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where robbers break through, but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt..

Matthew 6.19-20, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt...

Quote:

FA 15..For what is a man profited, if shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for it?

Matthew 16.26, For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Quote:

FA 15...and maketh His sun to rise on sinners, and the righteous, and the wicked.

Matthew 5.45, ...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good..

Quote:

FA 15...Take no thought therefore what ye shall eat, or what ye shall put on; for your heavenly father knoweth that ye need of these things. But seek ye the kingdom of heaven and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 6.31-33, Take therefore no thought, saying, what shall we eat, or What shall we dink or wherewithal shall we be clothed?....for your heavenly father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

Quote:

FA 15..For where his treasure is, there also is the mind of a man.

Matthew 6.21, For where your treasure is, there will be your heart also.

Quote:

FA 15..Do not these things to be seen of men, otherwise ye have no reward from your father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6.1, Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your father which is in heaven,

mountainman · 03-27-2008, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I am really intrigued by Justin Martyr's writings since they appear to indicate that the names of the authors of the memoirs of the apostles, Acts of the Apostles, the names of the authors of the Epistles were all fabricated after Justin's writings.

This is an interesting thing - emergent from your analysis: Justin Martyr is presented as appearing that he does not know these names. So who was the first to mention these names, and when? And to whom?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-28-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Can any one show me one single piece of credible non-apologetic source that support these NT characters?

I think it should be noted that this mantra of yours contains an extremely question begging assumption -- namely, that by their very nature "apologies" cannot and do not contain anything historically reliable and cannot/should not be regarded/used by historians as evidence of the historicity of the figure whose reputation they defend (that's what Apologetic literature does) or as sources for determining what that figure did and said.[/quote]

I wonder, then, what you have to say to Classical historians who think that The Apology of Plato and The Apology of Xenophon stand not only as excellent testimony to the historicity of Socrates (and who think would do so even in the absence of any non apologetic contemporary corroborative evidence), but also as extremely good sources for determining what went on at the trial of Socrates (the historicity of which is, to my knowledge, attested only in apologetic and non contemporaneous sources) and for what Socrates taught about the duties of a philosopher.

What do you know about ancient Apologetic literature that they don't?

Jeffrey

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-25-2008, 08:48 AM	#575
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	This layout is a correction to post #569, to show that Justin Martyr did not mention the name of the authors of the Gospels, the epistles to the Churhes, Paul, Timothy or Barnabas, quite unlike Origen. AGAINST CELSUS (c 200 CE) DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO (c 150CE) Matthew ............. ......... ........ no named author .......... ........... Mark ........ ............... ............ no named author ........ ........... Luke ....... ........... .......... ........ no named author ........ ........... John ...... ........... .......... ........ no named author ........ ............ Acts of the Apostles ....... ....... .. no mention of Acts .... ........... Epistle to Romans ........ ....... ..... no mention of Epistle ... .......... Epistles to Corinthians ...... ....... . no mention of Epistles ... ....... Epistle to Galations .......... ....... . no mention of Epistle ..... ....... Epistle to Ephesians ......... ........ no mention of Epistle ..... ...... Epistle to Philippians ......... ...... .. no mention of Epistle .... ...... Epistle to Colossians ........ ........ no mention of Epistle .... ........ Epistles to Thessalonians ... ..... . . . .no mention of Epistle .... ........ Epistle to Timothy ...... ....... ..... no mention of Epistle .... ....... Epistle to Barnabas ...... ..... .... no mention of Epistle ..... ........ Apocalypse of John ....... ....... Revelation of John ......... ....... PAUL ......... ....... ..... ... no mention of PAUL ...... PETER ...... ....... ...... .. .... mention of PETER.....

03-26-2008, 09:07 PM	#577
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	ok aa5874, I have to admit, that with these last few posts, you've actually begun to make a good point. That said, the job then is to figure out whether there is a historical root in any of these characters, or if they really were invented from whole cloth. Have you considered the similarities between Paul and Simon Magus?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.