Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roach Clips · 02-09-2007, 12:01 AM

This is an argument I made on another site.

Quote:

Some Christians believe we are living in the end times as prophesied in Revelations and the rapture may occur at any moment and when it happens, the bodies of all believers will instantly ascend into heaven, leaving behind all non-believers. They also believe that non-believers will be given another chance to achieve salvation during the seven year tribulation following the rapture and any non-believer who dies without converting to Christianity will suffer eternal damnation in hell.

Now we can all agree that it is immoral for a person to drive a car, fly a plane, or operate heavy machinery when they can lose control at any moment. For example; it is immoral for an epileptic to drive because they'd be recklessly endangering the lives of pedestrians. Well, this is a problem for Christians who drive because they can lose control at anytime and possibly kill some of the non-believers left behind. But the truly immoral part of all this is, if they happen to kill a non-believer, they deny him any chance of achieving salvation during the seven year tribulation that will follow the rapture and effectively condemn him to eternal damnation because of their actions. Therefore, it is immoral for a Christian who believes in the rapture to drive.

Comment on my argument if you want but my real question comes from what a Christian said "How is it immoral, if time is suddenly stopped and they are taken to Heaven? Whatever vehicles they are comandeering are frozen in motion, so no harm can come to anyone. Your argument is invalid unless you can prove that time continues to go while the ''saved'' people are taken from their vehicles. It's not an axiom which we can hold as being 100% factual, which is why this topic is completely useless."

He is stuck on this point. Where he is getting this idea that time will stop during the rapture is beyond me and I don't really know how to respond to it.

jakejonesiv · 02-09-2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach Clips

This is an argument I made on another site.

Comment on my argument if you want but my real question comes from what a Christian said "How is it immoral, if time is suddenly stopped and they are taken to Heaven? Whatever vehicles they are comandeering are frozen in motion, so no harm can come to anyone. Your argument is invalid unless you can prove that time continues to go while the ''saved'' people are taken from their vehicles. It's not an axiom which we can hold as being 100% factual, which is why this topic is completely useless."

He is stuck on this point. Where he is getting this idea that time will stop during the rapture is beyond me and I don't really know how to respond to it.

Just tell him if time stops he will never get to heaven and sinners will never be thrown into the maw of the burning abyss.

I wouldn't take any flight with a Christian pilot, just to be safe.

Clivedurdle · 02-09-2007, 07:49 AM

Now that would be an interesting risk management question - do you believe you might be raptured?

Yes

Sorry, we cannot allow you to drive or fly a plane - you are putting others at risk!

How would you insure that?

And if they had made a will or have life insurance, is that not evidence they do not believe in the rapture?

ModernHeretic · 02-09-2007, 07:49 AM

To put it bluntly, he's making sh!t up. Technically, he's offering you an "ad hoc hypothesis", which is to say that he is making something up on the spot without any evidence in order to defend his beliefs. Of course, his hypothesis could be true (you certainly can't prove it's false), but given that he probably just made it up on the spot and has zero evidence to suggest that it's actually true, I'm not sure it's something you have to take seriously (of course, these people's beliefs generally aren't based on evidence anyway, although at the very least they MIGHT be based upon scripture, or at least something they read in a Left Behind novel).

jakejonesiv · 02-09-2007, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Now that would be an interesting risk management question - do you believe you might be raptured?

Yes

Sorry, we cannot allow you to drive or fly a plane - you are putting others at risk!

How would you insure that?

OMIGOD! :rolling:
Maybe the insurance companies could offer Rapture Insurance. Now that would be a money maker! I bet I could peddle that to backsliden Christians and those who are having momentary doubts. "Brother, are you really saved?"

Amaleq13 · 02-09-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach Clips

He is stuck on this point. Where he is getting this idea that time will stop during the rapture is beyond me and I don't really know how to respond to it.

To avoid the problem you've identified in the way he claims, he has to also claim that time never starts up again after the faithful have been swept up. Or he could claim that God magically brings all vehicles to a safe stop. Or he could claim that the subsequent deaths are part of the punishment that is supposed to take place after the good folks are taken.

There really is no end to one's conjecture when one can appeal to magic. You are wasting your time trying to reason with such individuals, IMO.

Roach Clips · 02-09-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

There really is no end to one's conjecture when one can appeal to magic. You are wasting your time trying to reason with such individuals, IMO.

That may be so but it is a good waste time because I am learning and improving my debating skills in the process.

Quote:

Or he could claim that the subsequent deaths are part of the punishment that is supposed to take place after the good folks are taken.

I've heard this one before. And I think the best response is Christians are expected to strive to follow the teachings of JC (love thyself as thy neighbour) and if they drive knowing full well they can be raptured at anytime there are not putting the lives of non-believers before themselfs and are essentially rejecting the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Sheshbazzar · 02-11-2007, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach Clips

...They also believe that non-believers will be given another chance to achieve salvation during the seven year tribulation following the rapture... ...if they happen to kill a non-believer, they deny him any chance of achieving salvation during the seven year tribulation that will follow the rapture...

Quote:

Comment on my argument if you want but my real question comes from what a Christian said "How is it immoral, if time is suddenly stopped and they are taken to Heaven? Whatever vehicles they are comandeering are frozen in motion, so no harm can come to anyone. Your argument is invalid unless you can prove that time continues to go while the ''saved'' people are taken from their vehicles. It's not an axiom which we can hold as being 100% factual, which is why this topic is completely useless."

He is stuck on this point. Where he is getting this idea that time will stop during the rapture is beyond me and I don't really know how to respond to it.

If "time is suddenly stopped" as he suggests, then how would the duration of "the seven year tribulation" which is also claimed to be believed, supposed to proceed with time being so "stopped"?
Given the consideration that Scripture gives to the accounting's of, and the observances of time, a theory or doctrine postulating a stopping of the orderly progress of days, weeks, months, and years is entirely unscriptural and scripturally insupportable.
His position is illogical, as worthless as debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
You can point out the inconsistency inherent within his idea, but it remains for the individual to acknowledge that something is wrong with his views, and to make appropriate changes. or to take it to the grave.
Wonderful thing about time, that it gives men time and the space to change their minds about a good many matters.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-09-2007, 07:49 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Now that would be an interesting risk management question - do you believe you might be raptured? Yes Sorry, we cannot allow you to drive or fly a plane - you are putting others at risk! How would you insure that? And if they had made a will or have life insurance, is that not evidence they do not believe in the rapture?

02-09-2007, 07:49 AM	#4
ModernHeretic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 357	To put it bluntly, he's making sh!t up. Technically, he's offering you an "ad hoc hypothesis", which is to say that he is making something up on the spot without any evidence in order to defend his beliefs. Of course, his hypothesis could be true (you certainly can't prove it's false), but given that he probably just made it up on the spot and has zero evidence to suggest that it's actually true, I'm not sure it's something you have to take seriously (of course, these people's beliefs generally aren't based on evidence anyway, although at the very least they MIGHT be based upon scripture, or at least something they read in a Left Behind novel).

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.