Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 03-26-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Yes, and by FR Stephenson during the "conventional" dating for the Amarna Period in 1375 BCE. But, likely de Jong and van Soldt were presuming B++ must have meant "was ashamed" because they hadn't thought that "sixth" worked with the day of the month, not thinking it could refer to the hour of the day, especially since the day of the new moon is referenced specifically.

The problem is partly about the mention of Reshep, which is considered to be a reference to Mars. It helps de Jong and van Soldt to find a more appropriate eclipse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

If though, this is understood to be the sixth hour, then out of four possible matches, only one event occurs between 5-6 a.m. and that's the 1375BCE event. So only if you go around the corner and down the block to bet "btt" as "was ashamed" and applied indirectly to the entire "day of the new moon" instead of specifically the sun or moon, as it occurs in that context elsewhere do you even get to those other dates. Therefore, once "btt" becomes the clear choice or even a clear option for "sixth" in relation to the hour, then there is only one date that can be applied to this event. That's why it is so preemptive. Once you give the hour of an eclipse, lunar or solar, it practically eliminates any other eclipses for any other years a thousand years in each direction.

It may be preemptive, but totally unsupported in Ugaritic literature and apparently, ummm, wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

In this case, the Egyptians (who were actually ruling over Ugarit at the time?)...

You have this very strange idea of Egyptian rule. From the Amarna letters you can see that the Egyptians tended to leave these lowly types in Canaan alone until it was really necessary to deal with them. Complaints came in from there for years without Egypt showing any real interest. There were just a few agents doing the rounds to pacify them and there were a few garrisons sparsely through these territories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

...have a direct association of "gates" and the travel of the sun. This at least suggests this is an Egyptian concept because of that clear and direct association as well as because, as noted, Ugarit was actually an Egyptian subsidiary at the time, likely with an in-house Egyptian officer.

Yeah, sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Well, seems you didn't know that from the time the Egytians took over Canaan they sent all the nobles to be educated in Egypt. So definitely by this time Egypt's academic concepts were of greatest influence over Ugarit.

Nobles sent to Egypt was usually for control. Political threat. When someone caused to much disturbance they were summoned to Egypt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

This is just the first Google reference that came up when I searched "Canaan Egypt university." So for most who know Egyptian history it is commonly known that part of the control and influence over Canaan involved education in Egyptian universities.

What is the primary source for this? You know, which Ugaritic or Amarna letters?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

That's precisely what I'm saying. It's "shorthand" understood by the person writing it who doesn't have to overexplain the obvious, no more than if I wrote "3/26/06" would be understood as a date in our culture.

You would expect to find it elsewhere, but you don't. Stop retrojecting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

RESHEP is simply a reference to the zodiac house.

You might find that in the literatreu, but you don't. You find Reshep being equated with Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Really? Great. But in EGYPT,

The text wasn't from Egypt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

This is based on the context of hundreds of astronomical texts that use this type of "shorthand."

This tablet is thought to be one of the first, if not the first, to describe a solar eclipse. You can't appeal to conventions with the first of anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

I don't have to, I have all Ace's. :notworthy:

In this game aces are low. You need the full deck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

NOT, if B++ is translated at "sixth."

Actually, it simply doesn't. The B- is a preposition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

As I pointed out, clearly a point you didn't realize and perhaps they either, is that all the nobles and magistrates were educated in Egypt as part of Egypt's control over the region.

I'm relatively well aware of the world seen in the archives of Ugarit. Add to that the Amarna letters and show me anywhere this theory about nobles being sent to "universities".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Plus there were Egyptian officials stationed in these cities.

The agents weren't stationed in cities. They traveled among cities. The only people stationed were garrisons and they were few and far between.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

The idea of the "sun entering Her gate" is so directly Egyptian.

Uh-huh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

But also is the concept of the 24-hour day.

What has a 34 hour day got to do with this tablet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

This matters not. RESHEP was simply adopted as a reference for TAURUS because he fit the bill: an angry, hotheaded got, like the angry "Bull of Heaven."

If you want to believe this. However, we are dealing with a Ugaritic text, not an Egyptian one. And you don't seem to be aware of Ugaritic culture at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Ugarit was Egypt at this time, part of the Egyptian empire! Hello?!!!!

Yeah, hello? You have to assume that the date you depend on is correct. But you only have an early analysis and a lot of speculation for that assumption. You ignore the fact that it is a Ugaritic and not Egyptian text, found in Ugarit, written in Ugaritic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

You are running from the fundamentals here! Ugarit was more Egyptian than Ugaritian at this point.

Talking about "running from the fundamentals here", you've entered the realm of fantasy. The text was written in Ugaritic. That's got nothing to do with Egypt or Egyptians.

spin

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 04:12 AM

From RED DAVE:

Quote:

For openers, Larwsguy47 [sic], before you starting spouting off about the Holocaust, you need to learn some respect for history. The Jewish population of the world in 1939 was about 16.7 million. The Holocaust, hideous as it was (1/3 if my family was wiped out), killed less than half of us.

So, you are completely wrong in a crucial fact, and on that point alone, your entire mountain of speculation collapses.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

Here are the statistics, generally, a reference to the resettled Jews in Europe who were actually subjected to the Holocaust.

Quote:

From "The Holocaust Victims" -- "The Holocaust was the systematic annihilation of millions of Jews by the Nazi regime during World War 2. In 1933 approximately nine million Jews lived in the 21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Germany during the war. By 1945 two out of every three European Jews had been killed.

From RED DAVE:

Quote:

The prophecy that you have referred to does not refer to "Jews lived in the 21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Germany during the war." It refers to all Jews. What you have done is <edit> select figures that support your preconception.

I would appreciate a reply to my point.

RED DAVE

Johnny Skeptic · 03-27-2007, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy

Why Believe the Bible's History? Good question. But the fact is, since little can be absolutely proven or disproven, it's a credibility call. In that vain, though, what the Bible offers as an incentive to believe in its history I think is fulfilled prophecy. That is, the ability of God to see into the future and write down what will happen 2000 years earlier. That's what I'm impressed with when it comes right down to being faced with simply believing the Bible over some other historical book or historical inscription.

This works particularly good for the non-believers too, because it is fascinating stuff and they deal with dismissing the Bible based upon "logic" for the most part.

So here would be a few interesting "coincidences" I'd throw out there.

1. The KTU 1.78 text records a solar eclipse that occurred in Ugarit. The face of the text was charred as it was in a fire, but it's the only text like it found at Ugarit. The writing suggests that it might have simply been a personal reference; it was not a text designed as a record. On one side is the hour, day and month of the eclipse, along with the zodiac sign at sunrise. On the other side is a liver reading. So this was more "astrological" text than astronomic text monitoring celestial phenomena. The fact that it is unique combined with it's charred surface, though, suggests that it was current or even perhaps not having been presented to the king for a reading yet. It might have been out on the table drying when the fire occurred. Thus a text that might have likely been tossed out after its usefulness for that particular event got preserved. Problem is, if that's the case, then we know exactly when the fire took place datable by the eclipse. The text can only be dated to one date: 1375BCE, that's the only date where an eclipse occurs in the "sixth hour" (between 5 and 6 a.m.) out of three other possibles. Further, Ugarit was not destroyed until much later, so this had to be a local building fire, but still a major one. Another level was built over where this text was found. Having noted that, one of the Amarna Letters reported a major fire in the palace that destroyed half the palace and this has been linked to year 12 of Akhenaten. If so, we have a "fixed" date for his 12th year. It also means there is a "fixed" date for the Exodus, which occurs in his first year, that falling in 1386BCE.

Now that is a completely independent but fixed, specific dating for the 1st of Akhenaten and the Exodus, potentially. But that also means this date has to link up with any prophetic dates linked to the Exodus that are in the Bible. For instance, the 70th jubilee of the Jews make up the last jubilee in a week where the Exodus is the first jubilee. The jubilee period is 49 years. The date the Jews ended their last exile and regained their Promised Land was 1947.

So the pressure is on now, based upon the Bible's chronology and prophecy, to see if the Bible's chronology matches a potentially astronomically fixed date for the year of the Exodus.

Well?

Well, it's simple math. Add 49 years to 1947 and you get the end of the "week" of 70 weeks of 49 years. 70 x 49 is 3430 years. The beginning of this week would be 1435 BCE. 3430 - 1996 = 1434 BCE +1 for the missing zero year = 1435 BCE. The Exodus, which is the 50th year following 49, but also the first of the next 49 would be 49 years later, which gives you 1386BCE.

So is that a COINCIDENCE?

Non-believers will definitely say it is or try to find something wrong with the interpretation, etc. But the believers can't see this as a mere coincidence. That's the difference between the believers and the nonbelievers. The believers figure God started that fire in the first place that burned down the palace the same week as that eclipse, but only after the eclipse was recorded!

Problem is, though, that's not the only "coincidence."

2. THE HOLOCAUST NUMBERS: Daniel is a book of prophecy and it goes on and on about this "great tribulation" that is supposed to happen to the Jews. A time when the "holy ones" (the Jews) will be dashed to pieces. (Daniel 12:7). This is a time of "extermination" per Daniel 9. This great tribulation, of course, was to occur to the Jews in the "end times" and was to be an event like none other in history. Daniel 12:1 " And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time."

Now what could this horror of events be in the future that the Jews were to experience? What this is talking about, is the HOLOCAUST! Of course, anyone can claim that, but that's where chronology comes in. It's one thing to apply something to some future event and claim it is fulfilled, it's a little more involved if it has to fit some numbers. I'll share two that has to fit the Holocaust if it fulfills the "great tribulation".

Here's the prophecy about how God will restore the Jews after this great tribulation, the Holocaust:

Zechariah 13:8 8 “And it must occur in all the land,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’”

That's right. This "great tribulation" can be identified when two thirds of the Jews are killed and one third survives. When did that happen? The Holocaust.

Now the non-believers are going to say: "Oh no! That's not what this means! That's just a coincidence." But the believers will see this as amazing, fulfilled prophecy. Obviously, the general numbers from the Holocaust are an estimated 9 million Jews before where six million were killed.

But there's another specific chronology that has to be fulfilled. This "great tribulation" is supposed to take place within an "hour", which in the Bible is 7 years. The covenant week of the Jews is made up of 7 days of 490 years each from the time they were in Egypt (1435 BCE) until 49 years after their return to Palestine (1996). Their final jubilee begins the last 49 years of the week. But just before that, this "hour" of extermination and great tribulation is supposed to occur. Thus, to fulfill this, it must happen not only within a 7-year period, but it must come at the end of 62 weeks. The last 70 weeks are divided into 62 weeks (434 years), 1 week (7 years) and 7 weeks (49 years). The "cut off" of the messiah, represented by the Jews, happens at the end of 62 weeks, that is 434 years into the last 70 weeks.

The entire week, though is FIXED by the 70 weeks linked to the coming of Christ in 29 CE. This 70 weeks prophecy ends in 36CE. This ends the THIRD DAY of this week, that is from 455BCE to 36CE. So here are the Seven Days, basically of this 3430-year long week:

DAY 1 1435-945 BCE
DAY 2 945-455 BCE
DAY 3 455-36 CE
DAY 4 36-526 CE
DAY 5 526-1016 AD
DAY 6 1016-1506 AD
DAY 7 1506-1996 AD

Now per the Bible's own chronology, the destruction would occur during a 7-year period following 62 weeks, and be ended by the last 49 years for the Jewish Jubilee, all during the 7th day(the last 490 years of the 3430-year week).

1506 begins that week. 62 weeks is 434 years. Therefore, this "hour" of tribulation when two-thirds of the nation would be destroyed and extermination is mandated by the fixed week to fall specifically between 1940 and 1947. WHY? Because 434 plus 1506 is 1940. Of course, the Holocaust did exterminate two thirds of the Jews and it does occur between 1940 and 1947, in a week that has ZERO FLEXIBILITY because it is fixed by the third day ending in 36CE.

See how this works? The believers are amazed at the fulfillment and the chronology and the non-believers will say, "Coincidence!" or "Anybody can get any numbers they want out of any scripture and make it work!" But they never do it. Talk is cheap.

SUMMARY: So you see, in summary, while there is really not reason to take the Bible seriously as a historical work compared to other historical documents, it gains credibility when you understand and check the prophecies linked to absolute dates.

But the end result is the same. The believers have incresed faith that the Bible is true, but the nonbelievers, who don't believe in the Bible in the first place and certainly don't want to bother with trying to interpret prophecies find more and more reasons not to believe.

So fulfilled prophecy, when correctly applied, does give the believers an edge over the nonbelievers, as far as even beginning to the trust the Bible or take it seriously in the first place.

Larsguy

If God can predict the future, and wants everyone to know that he can predict the future, it would be a simple matter for him to show up now in person and prove it to everyone. Why doesn't he do it?

If God can predict the future, all that that means is that he is powerful. I am not nearly as impressed with a being's power as I am with his character. I am not impressed with God's character, so whatever his powers might be do not make any difference to me. It is not having power that is most important, but what you do with it.

matthewthomas · 03-27-2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

...<snip>
See how this works? The believers are amazed at the fulfillment and the chronology and the non-believers will say, "Coincidence!" or "Anybody can get any numbers they want out of any scripture and make it work!" But they never do it. Talk is cheap.

SUMMARY: So you see, in summary, while there is really not reason to take the Bible seriously as a historical work compared to other historical documents, it gains credibility when you understand and check the prophecies linked to absolute dates.

...<snip>
Larsguy

"Anyone can get any numbers they want out of any scripture and make it work!"
Thanks. Couldn't have said it better myself. Taking an event we all know has happened then playing with numbers until it fits isn't going to convince anyone. Not unless they're already convinced for some other reason.

Now, what might convince me is if you were able to use the numbers in that book of yours to predict something in the future. Not a prediction about life after death, or anything else in an heavenly/non-worldly realm. This prochecy you find convincingly fulfilled in the holocaust happened in this world.

So, are there any things predicted for the future whose dates are fortold by the scriptures? Anything that, when it happens at the predicted time, will make me sit back and say, 'You know, that guy might just have a point!'?

Or did god not predict this far in advance? Perhaps he didn't want to spoil the surprise...

Matthew

Doug Shaver · 03-27-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

It has been my observation that to an apologist, the only "correct application" of any argument in defense of the Bible is one that assumes its conclusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Well, of course.

I think I'll rest my case.

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 01:58 PM

Larsguy47, since you're around, I would appreciate a reply to my post #32.

RED DAVE

spin · 03-27-2007, 09:57 PM

I think Larsguy47's avoidance of this thread means that he has seen the light and given up trying to argue the ridiculous position that a text found at Ugarit, written in Ugaritic, was written by an Egyptian.

spin

Larsguy47 · 03-27-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Larsguy47, since you're around, I would appreciate a reply to my post #32.

RED DAVE

Sorry, but obviously there are lots of posts and I miss some. Here'se your #32 response:

From RED DAVE:

Quote:

Quote:
For openers, Larwsguy47 [sic], before you starting spouting off about the Holocaust, you need to learn some respect for history. The Jewish population of the world in 1939 was about 16.7 million. The Holocaust, hideous as it was (1/3 if my family was wiped out), killed less than half of us.

This was a reference to the Jews of Europe and the symbolism that that was where they were concentrated as a people, thus becoming the atypical "Judea" and Warsaw, Poland, by far the largest concentration of Jews, atypical "Jerusalem." But I understand your specific point.

Quote:

So, you are completely wrong in a crucial fact, and on that point alone, your entire mountain of speculation collapses.

No it doesn't. There is a lot of specific stuff involved, if you can stand hearing it. Warsaw is "atypical" Jerusalem. The "disgusting thing in a holy place" was supposed to surround "Jerusalem" at which point that was the sign to leave. It's a triple parallel prophecy with Jesus being surrounded in the garden, the Romans surrounding Jerusalem in 70 CE and Hitler's turbo canons brought from the front back to Poland to surround it. That was the sign of the "disgusting thing" in a holy place. So a lot of those fulfillments are specific to the Jews of Europe and what happened. Jehovah's witnesses also factor into the fulfillment since they were targets of the Nazis as well. So it's more involved than you think.

Quote:

From Larsguy47:

Quote:
Here are the statistics, generally, a reference to the resettled Jews in Europe who were actually subjected to the Holocaust.

Quote:
From "The Holocaust Victims" -- "The Holocaust was the systematic annihilation of millions of Jews by the Nazi regime during World War 2. In 1933 approximately nine million Jews lived in the 21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Germany during the war. By 1945 two out of every three European Jews had been killed.

Quote:

From RED DAVE:

The prophecy that you have referred to does not refer to "Jews lived in the 21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Germany during the war." It refers to all Jews. What you have done is <edit> select figures that support your preconception.

I appreciate your position, but in the Bible the exiled Jews create a new "Judea" and a new symbolic "Jerusalem" which was Warsaw, Poland. So the reference was for those Jews in Europe affected by the Holocaust and apparently not the entire Jewish population of the world. I understand your position, but this is non-negotiable. Just write it down and memorize it at this point. If you think you can compete with me as a Biblical "prophet" then be my guest, I'll be happy to disagree with you. No problem.

Quote:

I would appreciate a reply to my point.

See above.

Here's something for your regarding the Holocaust. The "great tribulation" is a big deal in the Bible. The book of Lamentations was written in advance to mourn over what would happen to the Jews centuries later. Some of the references are quite specific for what would happen during the Holocaust. I find this rather impressive:

Quote:

Lamentations 5:10 Our very skin has grown hot just like a furnace, because of the pangs of hunger.

11 The wives in Zion they have humbled, the virgins in the cities of Judah.

12 Princes themselves have been hanged by just their hand. The faces of even old men have not been honored.

Do you know that actually happened? In the movie "Holocaust" starring Meryl Streep and James Woods they actually show how they were hanged by their hands behind their back as part of their torture.

And the reason for the Holocaust is also given:

7 Our forefathers are the ones that have sinned. They are no more. As for us, it is their errors that we have had to bear.

Here's another reference to the coming Holocaust in Isaiah 3:

24 “And it must occur that instead of balsam oil there will come to be merely a musty smell; and instead of a belt, a rope; and instead of an artistic hair arrangement, baldness; and instead of a rich garment, a girding of sackcloth; a brand mark instead of prettiness.

This describes the typical concentration camp scene. The women's heads were shaved so that they were bald. They wore rags. And yes, they were "branded" -- concentration camp members were tattooed with numbers.

This was all because of false worship, when the Jewish women as prostitutes seduced men and got them to eventually sacrifice their children in the fire, whom they burned alive in kilns. It was so bad and so many children were being burned alive that Jerusalem was called the "city of bloodshed." (Na. 3:1)

Thus the specifics of the Holocaust reflects the burning up of babies by the Jewish women. The Holocaust was thus aimed at the Jewish women for what they had done:

Lamentations 4:6 The [punishment for the] error of the daughter of my people also becomes greater than the [punishment for the] sin of Sod´om,
Which was overthrown as in a moment, and to which no hands turned [helpfully].

So this horror in modern times shows God's own horror for what happened centuries later. The horror of how people could burn children alive. Thus during the Holocaust, when the death camps got too crowded and the ovens broke down, they just threw the children in the fire. That's what Wisel reported to Oprah.

Now finally, here's another detail.

Per the Bible this was all to happen in just "one hour" meaning 7 years. But because the extermination was so effective, two thirds of the Jews involved in the Holocaust had been killed before the 7 years were up. The 7 years were to be from 1940-1947. So the "days were cut short" or else no "flesh" (of the Jews) would be saved:

Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now [The Holocaust], no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

Two thirds were to perish, and one third was to survive. But that ratio was reached by 1945, 2 years before the end of the 7 years, so the "days were cut short" to save those Jews. Had Hitler been more successful and continued longer, it was his intent to kill every Jew and half Jew in the entire world. He felt they were a genetic threat to the Aryan race.

See, everything was fulfilled just as the Bible says and WHEN the Bible says.

LARSGUY47

Larsguy47 · 03-27-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I think Larsguy47's avoidance of this thread means that he has seen the light and given up trying to argue the ridiculous position that a text found at Ugarit, written in Ugaritic, was written by an Egyptian.

spin

I don't have to defend this in the least since Ugarit was under Egyptian rule at the time. Ummm, does that mean anything to you? Egypt educated everybody by now, so everybody was Egyptianized and knew about the concepts of Egyptian astronomy.

The Egyptians had the concept that the sun entered the gates of Hator at night and then emerged through HER final gate at sunrise. So the sun "entering through HER gate" is very Egyptian. Period. Egyptian influence, explains the reference.

As far as not answering this thread, I truly have been typing all day and been keeping up with some of the other threads I'm commenting on so I'm a bit slow responding. It has nothing to do with abandonment for any other reason than I've been researching and posting in other threads.

Anyway, I made my point and everybody agrees with me now. Right? So what's there to say?

Larsguy47:wave:

spin · 03-27-2007, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

I don't have to defend this in the least since Ugarit was under Egyptian rule at the time.

Only assuming the Sawyer/Stephenson dating which is not taken as given and doubted by subsequent published studies, such as the one I've already cited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Ummm, does that mean anything to you?

Yeah, it means that you are trying to make out too much from that poor little datum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Egypt educated everybody by now, so everybody was Egyptianized and knew about the concepts of Egyptian astronomy.

Rubbish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

The Egyptians had the concept that the sun entered the gates of Hator at night and then emerged through HER final gate at sunrise. So the sun "entering through HER gate" is very Egyptian. Period. Egyptian influence, explains the reference.

You're getting repetitive with your assumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

As far as not answering this thread, I truly have been typing all day and been keeping up with some of the other threads I'm commenting on so I'm a bit slow responding. It has nothing to do with abandonment for any other reason than I've been researching and posting in other threads.

Anyway, I made my point and everybody agrees with me now. Right? So what's there to say?

Umm, that you may be delusional. The only person who seems to agree with you is the person who shares your skull.

spin

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03-27-2007, 01:58 PM	#36
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	Larsguy47, since you're around, I would appreciate a reply to my post #32. RED DAVE

03-27-2007, 09:57 PM	#37
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	I think Larsguy47's avoidance of this thread means that he has seen the light and given up trying to argue the ridiculous position that a text found at Ugarit, written in Ugaritic, was written by an Egyptian. spin

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