David Vestal

There is no historical evidence for the existence of the disciples or their deaths. In fact, since the gospels can't even seem to agree on exactly what the names of the disciples were (they list sixteen different names, and church tradition, without evidence, has equated some of them to bring the total down to twelve), there's no particular reason to believe that they were historical.

But aside from that, people die for lies all the time. Think suicide bombers, cult suicides, etc.

David B

Yup - I've given it.

People can be deluded by charismatic leaders, and often are.

On the other hand - there is no instance of anything supernatural happening, ever, that stands up to sceptic analysis.

And, on a putative third hand, there are loads of cases where allegedly supernatural events that people have believed in very strongly have been effectively debunked.

David B (only uses your assumptions for the purposes of argument, but isn't wedded to them)

David Vestal

Please note the several posters who have pointed out the lack of historical evidence for the disciples' existence.

Even if we assume...
1) Jesus existed.
2) The disciples existed.
3) The disciples thought Jesus was god.
4) The disciples died for that belief.
...none of which is supported by any good historical evidence, there remains the possibility that Jesus was only a convincing charlatan. Even in modern times, frauds like Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne fool people by the thousands.

Thus, the argument that the disciples died for their belief simply has no evidentiary weight at all.

Biff the unclean

Even if the Jesus story isn't complete fiction, have you ever read any of The Lives of the Saints that has the deaths of the disciples in it?
They are ridiculous. Jesus comes back to earth and sells St Thomas to a king in India as a slave LOL... they are dark ages Desperate Housewives

wordy

This "Falun Gong" thing going in China give evidence that people are going into death willingly for everything manipulative enough to give them hope of something.

the ability of our body to fool us into believing untrue things is fantastic. Sadly that doesn't seem to get away.

aa5874

If you're serious, you got to find some time.

Anyhow, ask your theology teacher whether or not the birth and resurrection of Jesus, as described in the NT, are not lies. That is, can a spirit have a son and can a dead man come to life after at least 2 days, buried in a sealed tomb under guard and then fly through the air?

And shane42, if you were alive during these supposed events, would you die for such events?

As far as I know, the NT is based on dreams. Read Matthew 1 and Luke 1-3 for some of the dreams about Jesus. Jesus and his disciples live in a dream world. There have been times when I have died in my dreams.

Wayne Delia

Why stop there? Why not go whole hog and assume Jesus is God? So, if we're assuming Jesus existed, He had 12 apostles, they all died for believing in Him, and He's God, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that He's God?

WMD

David B

Paul didn't personally know Jesus. I'm unaware of evidence that the people who wrote down the gospels actually knew Jesus. Have you got any?

I think you'd actually be pretty hard pressed to prove this. Not that I think for a moment that he actually met an non existent (IMV) entity. But that is not the point of my mention of him, which perhaps I didn't explain sufficiently. The point was that the followers of Koresh, who believed in his messiahship (if that is the right word) did know him.

Strictly speaking, in the sense that solipsism is an unfalsifiable belief, you are right, here.

Wrong I have actually met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and did believe that he really did perform miracles. I would have said at the time that I did know for certain that he did perform miracles.

Some of my contemporaries in that cult have never escaped.

Also check out -

http://www.sathyasai.org/

And consider that this website is the work of True Believers

And, in contrast, this one, which adopts a sceptical stance to the supernatural claims made by the fraudulent, sexual abusing, bastard

http://skepdic.com/saibaba.html

David B

Wayne Delia

It only takes one white crow to disprove the claim that all crows are black.

Here's your white crow: The 12-man entourage included a disciple named Judas, who was not killed for his belief that Jesus was God, but rather he committed suicide for apparently believing that he made a mistake in betraying Jesus. So, you're wrong on that one, and as a result, your line of argument here fails.

But I'm sure you thought that there actually was evidence that, perhaps, the other eleven original disciples were killed for believing in Jesus. I am aware of church traditions, for example, that Peter was crucified upside down because he felt he wasn't worthy to be crucified upright as Jesus was, and another disciple apparently was stoned to death.

But I'll call your bluff: what is the evidence that the disciple Bartholomew was killed for his beliefs?

If you've got none, and you can't find any, why bother assuming there's evidence that all of them died for their beliefs?

WMD

bekaybe

Where is your evidence that the disciples would have known if Jesus was pulling a fast one on them? David Koresh's disciples didn't appear to know they had fallen for a ruse. Jim Jones' followers - they "died for a lie." Shall I begin worship of Jones? How about the bald nitwit who decided he and his followers were to put on their red swooshed Nike's and follow behind some comet?

This "so many people wouldn't die for a lie" "proof" is quite possibly the most foolish I've ever had to misfortune of having to endure (Being slightly ahead on the scale of the incredibly weak as "Lord, Liar, Lunatic.") It's insulting that anyone would figure people are uneducated enough to even entertain this so called "offer" to even advance it. It's even more insulting that people accept it.