Roller

Perhaps not so simple. Remember what George Costanza said: "Jerry, Its not a lie if you believe its true." (or something like that)
Jesus, in the context of 1st century Jewish apocalypse preacher, would sincerely believe that the end is coming.

Fortuna

Sheshbazzar

We keeps going in circles here. first you say "context". I show you clearly hat in context, Jesus is most definitely referring to the generation in front of him.

But, then you say ;

Of course it does ! WE interpret how "you" is being used and to whom it refers using the context and language of the passage wher we find it ! But, in the context of Jesus in the context we are discussing, No, the referrent is to the generation in front of him. (show not only by the "you", but by the "this" as in THIS generation). What is so hard to comprehend here ?

Do you see the modifiers, how "you" is used in the phrase "All you people".
And of course, here the you refers to "ALL you people". He also addresses those in heaven and on earth. That is made clear by the context.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.

But we see none of these modifiers in M13 or Mt27. Why not ? Because he is addressing the generatino in front of him, THIS generation

Yes, it refers to "all" because it specifically says that ! Read it ;

ALL YOU people; hearken, O earth, and ALL that is therein:

But, does it say that or have those modifiers in M13 or Mt27 ? No, it doesn;t because it refers to "this generation".

And, you keep forgetting the "this" and the meaning of that modifier ! Why do you not address that one ? ("that", another prepositional referant, are you starting to understnad it yet ?)

But what has that specifically to do with our passage and his referrant to "this generation" ? ( notice that "this" is also a singular prepositional referrant, otherwise it would be "these" if it referred to more than one).

It is not clear to me that he is re-iterating the older prophets. But, even if he is, that doesn;t solve the problem that Jesus referred to them (using "you") and to that generation, using "this".

Now you seem to be trying to obfuscate the plain meaning of the text.

I don;t know about you, but to me, when people start trying to obfuscate the plain meaning of the text, they have an agenda.

And Yes, Shez, you do have an agenda here. I realize and understnad that you really don;t want those prophecies to be proven to be false, but they are false nonetheless. his prophecy failed.

But, some make the case for the Preterist position. While it makes more sense, and it addresses many of hte issues, Preterism still leaves loose ends.

But, Preterism is at least worth discussing.

Roller

If I'm not mistaken, Paul also believed that the end times is coming during his (Paul's) life. Did Paul misunderstood Jesus?

John Kesler

Ask a preterist when Zechariah 14 was fulfilled--and make them be specific. Here is an excerpt:

Sheshbazzar

An interesting prophecy, quite simple in its graphic description of events being predicted to take place.
Its always an interesting exercise to see what evasions have been, or can be invented, to avoid accepting it at its face value.

We have heard;

1. It is a "spiritual" passage, and thus does not mean anything near what it seem to state, and only "spiritual" men can interpret its true significance.

of course no two of them ever independently arrive at the same interpretation

2. It all took place in 70 A.D.

Yeah, and all historians just forgot to mention it, and every then since we have all been attending The Feast of Tabernacles yearly in Jerusalem, but we are just not aware of it.

3. It is only an idiom, and therefore not to be understood as saying what it clearly says, as per;

"A careful reading of chapters of OT such as Isaiah 13, 14, 34; Ezekiel 32; Joel 2, 3; Amos 8; Zephaniah 1; reveals that it is extensively used as a prophetic idiom for the destruction of a nation (such as Babylon)."

Except such theories do not mesh well with this particular prophecy, in that it predicts the former enemies of Israel, Judah, and Jerusalem, being converted to the point that they -WILL- ALL become participants in this "Jewish" festival

4. This prophecy failed, because it has never happened.

That it has NOT happened is the very point, as with many other Scriptural prophecies, it is a future event.
The entire NT is "forward looking", and while reflections on the past do occur, they are always as warnings and as examples to fortify the believing against all that is YET to come. And all DID NOT come to pass in 70 A.D.

We observe The Feast of Tabernacles yearly in its season in anticipation of that day, -then-, when ALL -WILL- go up to Jerusalem to "keep The Feast of Tabernacles" and ALL of the nations that remain -WILL- both observe and DO it.

Decypher

I will point out the obvious here: where events are predicted to happen in the future within a certain time limit then the prophecy will be falsified if the events do not happen within that limit. Even if the events do actually happen (after the time limit) it doesn't change the fact that the prophecy is false.

dongiovanni1976x

You are not mistaken. Here is an oft repeated but fav quote
for Paula Fredriksen about Paul's belief abotu the End Times...

Sheshbazzar

And just where do you establish the "certain time limit" to be on "THIS prophecy" ? (Zechariah 14)

A majority of believers have always understood the term "this generation" as employed in the end time prophecies of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, to apply to the generation that would "see" ALL of the predicted signs having came to pass, and being fulfilled, as it says, Now "ALL these things" consists of a quite lengthy list of preconditions, many of which by their very nature must transpire over some considerable lengths of time, and some that would be immediately apparent to ALL men.
We note also the requirement that the glad tidings must first be taught to
"ALL the world for a witness unto ALL nations" and to "EVERY nation" (Matt 24:14, Mark 13:10)
"And as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth." (Luke 21:35)

The glad tidings had not been taught to "ALL the world" nor to "EVERY nation" by 70 A.D.
Indeed this task is still ongoing, with countless millions still having virtually no knowledge of YAH-hoshua.

The events of 70 A.D. DID NOT "come as a snare on ALL of them that dwell upon the face of the WHOLE Earth."

Indeed history shows that in 70 A.D., any knowledge at all of of these matters was at best very limited, and was still confined to the theological views of a small (but growing) cultus.
Nope, the snare and trap is (still) set for them (still) being suckered in by the (still) growing apostasy.

GenesisNemesis

Why Jesus Isn't Coming Again


by Mike McClellan

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ spoke to His disciples 2000 years ago, telling them that he would return, that he was "coming again". His promise remains one of the most central themes in the myriad of Christian belief systems. Except for a very small minority, Christians still believe he is coming again, the Parousia, the rapture. Is His promise still valid? Has He yet to return? Or did He make the promise only to break it in the lifetime of those to whom He spoke?
The Promise
The following is taken from the Bible. All verses are from the King James version unless otherwise noted. The Bible references are hyperlinks and will take the reader to the New International Version quotation if so desired.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Fatherwith his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death*, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 16: 27-28

The language is clear. Jesus told his disciples that some of them would not taste of death - would not die - before he returned, until he came into his kingdom.

If you've been mistakenly taught that the verses above refer to Christ's Transfiguration, read Revelation 20:12 which coincides with Matthew 16:27 in describing a Judgment Day scenario:

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged outof those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:12

Christ was, again, clearly referring to his second coming before that present generation passed.

Again, Jesus tells his disciples:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the cloudsof heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:30-34

Again, Christ describes certain events and warns those who are listening to him that "This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled". He is speaking about their present generation.

Although the above scriptures clearly convey that Christ was talking about his present generation, there are many other references in the New Testament indicating that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles as well as the followers of Christ firmly believed that Jesus was speaking of their present generation and not some future time hundreds or thousands of years down the road.

Jesus spoke to his followers again about his coming according to the book of Matthew:

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 10:22-23

The cities of Israel were not so numerous that it would have taken a fleeing man 2000 years to go over or through them. No man could live that long. Christ said before a fleeing man could go through all the cities, he would come. Again, Christ was speaking of his return in that generation. He left no doubt as to his meaning in this passage.

What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short*. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
(1 Corinthians 7:29-31 - NIV)

Paul tells the Corinthians that time is short and that the world in its present form is passing away. His words have a strong sense of urgency, rather than being a mere suggestion. Paul believes the world is presently passing away. He is not speaking of some event which could take place 2000 years in the future.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep*, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
1 Corinthians 15:50-53

In this passage, Paul tells the Corinthians We shall not all sleep. Again, Paul is convinced and is convincing the Corinthians that the second coming of Christ is imminent in that generation and not all who hear his words will "sleep" or die prior to Christ's coming.


We Which Are Alive And Shall Remain

In the following portion of the letter which Paul writes to the Thessalonians he discusses those who remain alive in the present tense.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain* unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain* shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18


More Scripture Indicating Immediate Urgency

The New Testament is abundantly filled with references to the immediacy of Christ's return.

But the end of all things is at hand:* be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 4:7



God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days* spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things...
Hebrews 1:1-2

In 1 John, the false prophets foretold by Jesus who existed in that time period to give notice of the end times are discussed.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God...
1 John 4:1-3

*(italics mine)

According to the Bible, Jesus Christ said he would return in the generation in which he lived. He said the sign of the Son of Man would appear in heaven. He said all the tribes of Israel would mourn. He said the tribes would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He said he would send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels were to gather the "elect" from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. All of these things were to have happened in his generation. They didn't happen.

Jesus did not return as he said he would. He did not return as his disciples believed and preached that he would. Jesus didn't come in the disciples generation. He didn't come in any generation. The disciples all died. Jesus' promise was broken. The disciples believed and lived a false hope.

Jesus didn't come then and he isn't coming in the future. Those who cling to the broken promise and false hope of his return will be just as disappointed as the disciples who died looking in vain for the second coming of their Christ.

He isn't coming again.

Toto

The above was cut and pasted from here (or a similar page.) I don't see any copyright notice.